capsco
Well-Known Member
I find that hard to believe, who told you this, have you tried ringing the BSS officer at Watford ???
gas lockers in older boats
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
I find it hard to believe too - but follow the link and see what I mean.
Havent tried the BS office yet. Probably not much point since they actually charge for the standards and wont publish them on their web site.
Havent tried the BS office yet. Probably not much point since they actually charge for the standards and wont publish them on their web site.
capsco
Well-Known Member
I am still of the opinion that you are OK, but speak to BSS officer at Watford they are usually helpfull.
BSSOffice
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe too - but follow the link and see what I mean.
Havent tried the BS office yet. Probably not much point since they actually charge for the standards and wont publish them on their web site.
[/ QUOTE ]
My colleagues, Dave and Phil are usually excellent help. If anyone has a an especially tricky situation, please try sending them a few photos by email or snailmail and usually a solution can be found.
We charge £5.50 plus p&p for the all-new Guide, but you can download it FOC from www.boatsafetyscheme.com. The second edition has been up there since August Bank Holiday. The first edition has been on the site since 2002.
The calormarine site (excellent) is just a little out of date in some respects of the BSS since our updated requirements came in in April this year, but it does promote best practice to keep the boat and crew safe.
Any questions - don't hesitate to call 01923 201278.
Cheers
I find it hard to believe too - but follow the link and see what I mean.
Havent tried the BS office yet. Probably not much point since they actually charge for the standards and wont publish them on their web site.
[/ QUOTE ]
My colleagues, Dave and Phil are usually excellent help. If anyone has a an especially tricky situation, please try sending them a few photos by email or snailmail and usually a solution can be found.
We charge £5.50 plus p&p for the all-new Guide, but you can download it FOC from www.boatsafetyscheme.com. The second edition has been up there since August Bank Holiday. The first edition has been on the site since 2002.
The calormarine site (excellent) is just a little out of date in some respects of the BSS since our updated requirements came in in April this year, but it does promote best practice to keep the boat and crew safe.
Any questions - don't hesitate to call 01923 201278.
Cheers
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the help, but the link doesn't appear to be working properly.
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
We charge £5.50 plus p&p for the all-new Guide, but you can download it FOC from www.boatsafetyscheme.com. The second edition has been up there since August Bank Holiday. The first edition has been on the site since 2002.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh oh, someone has not paid your ISP yet!
The problem most of us have is that there are no regulations on sea going craft such as yachts, though more and more our insurance is forcing compliance to something. This unbelievably has not been tried in court as yet! It stinks a little of extortion that insurance can wiggle out of a non conformance to er....
It makes sense that most of us who value security look to the inland waterways and their boat safety scheme for guidance and safe practise, but that is all that is required of us.
When your site was up and functioning I spent a fair time reading your gas fitting regulations and took from it what I could. Some parts were just not possible on a sea going craft, most of all ventilation, I mean, you don't tend to take the odd wave on a canal or river.
Also, I seem to remember a regulation regarding height of bottles from the water and height of the outlet drain etc. Distances that would prove impossible to most leisure sail yachts. I wanted to confirm this from your site prior to writing this, apologies if I am talking bunkum.
Anyhow, I wanted to ask if you had been approached by CORGI or insurance companies with reference to sea going craft and how your communications went. Do you happen to know, from your position in the industry if regulations are on there way for us and who might police them if they do?
It has proved a very difficult area for many of us with older boats attempting to conform to new regulations. One Corgi marine chap I managed to telephone, starting harping along about ventilation, to the point he expected me to cut a ridiculous amount of holes into my vessels superstructure which in my opinion would have damaged the sea keeping and security of the boat.
I look forward to hearing any opinion you have as a Representative of the BSS and how you think we might bring our boats to a condition regarded by insurance companies as 'safe'.
We charge £5.50 plus p&p for the all-new Guide, but you can download it FOC from www.boatsafetyscheme.com. The second edition has been up there since August Bank Holiday. The first edition has been on the site since 2002.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uh oh, someone has not paid your ISP yet!
The problem most of us have is that there are no regulations on sea going craft such as yachts, though more and more our insurance is forcing compliance to something. This unbelievably has not been tried in court as yet! It stinks a little of extortion that insurance can wiggle out of a non conformance to er....
It makes sense that most of us who value security look to the inland waterways and their boat safety scheme for guidance and safe practise, but that is all that is required of us.
When your site was up and functioning I spent a fair time reading your gas fitting regulations and took from it what I could. Some parts were just not possible on a sea going craft, most of all ventilation, I mean, you don't tend to take the odd wave on a canal or river.
Also, I seem to remember a regulation regarding height of bottles from the water and height of the outlet drain etc. Distances that would prove impossible to most leisure sail yachts. I wanted to confirm this from your site prior to writing this, apologies if I am talking bunkum.
Anyhow, I wanted to ask if you had been approached by CORGI or insurance companies with reference to sea going craft and how your communications went. Do you happen to know, from your position in the industry if regulations are on there way for us and who might police them if they do?
It has proved a very difficult area for many of us with older boats attempting to conform to new regulations. One Corgi marine chap I managed to telephone, starting harping along about ventilation, to the point he expected me to cut a ridiculous amount of holes into my vessels superstructure which in my opinion would have damaged the sea keeping and security of the boat.
I look forward to hearing any opinion you have as a Representative of the BSS and how you think we might bring our boats to a condition regarded by insurance companies as 'safe'.
BSSOffice
Well-Known Member
Wow, there's a lot there to get my teeth into. Firstly the site is working, but I think it's the full stop at the end of my sentence that's throwing the wobbly folks - apologies, and I promise that my grammar will deteriorate further as of now (any excuse is useful).
Insurance compliance - I understand, but it is the nature of the Scheme that anyone can lift it and apply it without even telling us and without reference to our guidance on application and limitations.
Ventilation - no longer a requirement and a certificate will be issued, but our checks have been mostly designed with category D and C boats in mind. However there is the reference in chapter 8 to sea-going boats and closable ventilators. It is in the nature of sea going veseels, that they close down at sea, but probably don't run too many CO generating appliances. In harbour they are opened up to dry out and thus are well ventilated. Our CO advice still has some use and application on coastal boats, petrol engine exhaust fumes being one area of high risk.
All we ask of gas locker drains is that they are above the normal laden waterline. There is a set of diagrams on page 12 of chapter 7.
Coastal boating is regulated by the MCA. We have not been approached by the MCA about applying BSS requirements on currently un-coded vessels. As to insurance companies, see above. Some saline 'inland' harbours apply the BSS certification process as a mooring condition (to protect third parties).
What CORGI people want - to ensure that they meet their duties as a part of their registration I cannot comment on. However we have the fairly simple ventilation calculations in chapter 8 and these are based on industry standards. You should be able to work out the venting requirements for your own boat no probs. Cannot comment on any other organisation's stipulations.
The BSS examination and related compliance options are based on two standards. The requirements (in red in our new book) are there to protect third parties from fire, explosion and pollution related to the inherent condition of the boat. The Advice checks (in grey) are there to help owners identify areas of risk to themselves and their crew eg co poisoning, fire escape, electrocution - these are not requirements. Complying with all still does not a safe boat make - but it helps.
You've touched on some huge subjects. I hope that chapter one of the new Guide will help explain some of this in more detail.
We've not yet found a boat that there isn't a gas cylinder storage solution for so please take a look at the Guide and if you're still stuck, I'm very hopeful that Dave or Phill can help sort it out.
www.boatsafetyscheme.com
BTW we will have a stand at the London International Boat Show in January. Forumites are very welcome to come for chat/advice/answers and any other help we're able to offer.
Insurance compliance - I understand, but it is the nature of the Scheme that anyone can lift it and apply it without even telling us and without reference to our guidance on application and limitations.
Ventilation - no longer a requirement and a certificate will be issued, but our checks have been mostly designed with category D and C boats in mind. However there is the reference in chapter 8 to sea-going boats and closable ventilators. It is in the nature of sea going veseels, that they close down at sea, but probably don't run too many CO generating appliances. In harbour they are opened up to dry out and thus are well ventilated. Our CO advice still has some use and application on coastal boats, petrol engine exhaust fumes being one area of high risk.
All we ask of gas locker drains is that they are above the normal laden waterline. There is a set of diagrams on page 12 of chapter 7.
Coastal boating is regulated by the MCA. We have not been approached by the MCA about applying BSS requirements on currently un-coded vessels. As to insurance companies, see above. Some saline 'inland' harbours apply the BSS certification process as a mooring condition (to protect third parties).
What CORGI people want - to ensure that they meet their duties as a part of their registration I cannot comment on. However we have the fairly simple ventilation calculations in chapter 8 and these are based on industry standards. You should be able to work out the venting requirements for your own boat no probs. Cannot comment on any other organisation's stipulations.
The BSS examination and related compliance options are based on two standards. The requirements (in red in our new book) are there to protect third parties from fire, explosion and pollution related to the inherent condition of the boat. The Advice checks (in grey) are there to help owners identify areas of risk to themselves and their crew eg co poisoning, fire escape, electrocution - these are not requirements. Complying with all still does not a safe boat make - but it helps.
You've touched on some huge subjects. I hope that chapter one of the new Guide will help explain some of this in more detail.
We've not yet found a boat that there isn't a gas cylinder storage solution for so please take a look at the Guide and if you're still stuck, I'm very hopeful that Dave or Phill can help sort it out.
www.boatsafetyscheme.com
BTW we will have a stand at the London International Boat Show in January. Forumites are very welcome to come for chat/advice/answers and any other help we're able to offer.
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Thank for the link, which is now fully operational!
I don't know if you want to take questions on this, but let me tell you about a discussion I had at SIBS with a CORGI engineer who was trying to flog me his services on one of the stands.
My boat is 20years old and I have improved the locker which, for practical reasons is made from ply and has a side opening door. The engineer insisted that the locker has to be top opening and made from GRP or Stainless steel. Nothing else was acceptable to him.
I told him that I understood that it needed to be half hour fire resistant and that the materials are not specified. I also see from your notes that side entry doors are permitted.
My point is this. If CORGI engineers are not interpreting the rules properly how are we supposed to get certificates? Are we really expected to have to educate the engineers that we are paying about the details of the scheme?
I don't know if you want to take questions on this, but let me tell you about a discussion I had at SIBS with a CORGI engineer who was trying to flog me his services on one of the stands.
My boat is 20years old and I have improved the locker which, for practical reasons is made from ply and has a side opening door. The engineer insisted that the locker has to be top opening and made from GRP or Stainless steel. Nothing else was acceptable to him.
I told him that I understood that it needed to be half hour fire resistant and that the materials are not specified. I also see from your notes that side entry doors are permitted.
My point is this. If CORGI engineers are not interpreting the rules properly how are we supposed to get certificates? Are we really expected to have to educate the engineers that we are paying about the details of the scheme?
BSSOffice
Well-Known Member
Hi Joe
Side opening lockers are acceptable (but not recommended) in certain circumstances and under certain conditions. You may have to satify someone that it complies with (I think) iso 10239. Its location may mean that the LPG spills out of the door joints and out over the sides of the boat. Or, the door design may incorporate a gas-tight seal (LPG is very searching so this can be a challenge).
Wood also may present y'man some concerns. We would like to see wood lockers lined with something that will give both gas-tightness and fire resistance. For example one boat owner lined out his boat's locker with a consistent covereing of fire-resistant (manufacturer's statement) resin. Thick enough to give an estimated 30 min resistance and of even application to prevent gas leakage. I've heard of other owners getting their wood lockers lined with an interior stainless steel welded-seam liner that their local tin-bashers have created for a not that much money (relative to off-the-shelf gas lockers).
The high-level concept is that LPG is heavier than air and if it escapes your system (which it can in our frequent experience) it will sink to the lowest levels in your boat, cupboards, lockers, bilges etc. Put effective barriers in that route eg suitable gas locker, then it's 'job done'.
If you're worried about that engineers opinion, get another competent opinion to compare it with.
If it is BSS certificate you were refereing to in your last paragrapgh, if examiners are not applying the BSS check in an accurate and consistent way, the BSS office needs to know! (the examiners have exactly the same checks and procedures as are detailed in the Guide - no mysteries) Over the past three years I've been working for the BSS, there has been a lot of sharpening of quality control measures introduced by my colleagues.
For fitters, my main suggestion would be that if people have concerns about the lack of comptence of a boatyard, check to see if the yard is a British Marine Federation member. If so, make clear your specific and detailed concerns to the yard and copy the BMF technical department into the letter. Identifying potential skills deficits can only help the industry.
Am I right in guessing that you found the Guide useful?
Cheers
Side opening lockers are acceptable (but not recommended) in certain circumstances and under certain conditions. You may have to satify someone that it complies with (I think) iso 10239. Its location may mean that the LPG spills out of the door joints and out over the sides of the boat. Or, the door design may incorporate a gas-tight seal (LPG is very searching so this can be a challenge).
Wood also may present y'man some concerns. We would like to see wood lockers lined with something that will give both gas-tightness and fire resistance. For example one boat owner lined out his boat's locker with a consistent covereing of fire-resistant (manufacturer's statement) resin. Thick enough to give an estimated 30 min resistance and of even application to prevent gas leakage. I've heard of other owners getting their wood lockers lined with an interior stainless steel welded-seam liner that their local tin-bashers have created for a not that much money (relative to off-the-shelf gas lockers).
The high-level concept is that LPG is heavier than air and if it escapes your system (which it can in our frequent experience) it will sink to the lowest levels in your boat, cupboards, lockers, bilges etc. Put effective barriers in that route eg suitable gas locker, then it's 'job done'.
If you're worried about that engineers opinion, get another competent opinion to compare it with.
If it is BSS certificate you were refereing to in your last paragrapgh, if examiners are not applying the BSS check in an accurate and consistent way, the BSS office needs to know! (the examiners have exactly the same checks and procedures as are detailed in the Guide - no mysteries) Over the past three years I've been working for the BSS, there has been a lot of sharpening of quality control measures introduced by my colleagues.
For fitters, my main suggestion would be that if people have concerns about the lack of comptence of a boatyard, check to see if the yard is a British Marine Federation member. If so, make clear your specific and detailed concerns to the yard and copy the BMF technical department into the letter. Identifying potential skills deficits can only help the industry.
Am I right in guessing that you found the Guide useful?
Cheers
Joe_Cole
Well-Known Member
Yes, very useful indeed many thanks!
It's going to take me while to digest it all!
It's going to take me while to digest it all!