Gardiennage - how much of it do you have / do you need?

[Tranona]

yes that's exactly my point when I said "VERY". I put mine into gear a couple of times for just half a second. There is no way you could leave them in gear for a long period. That's why I would never ask a guardianage person to do it and I don't ask my stewardess. You need to know exactly what you're doing before you do this.

That is an advantage we sailboat owners have with our little diesels. 20 minutes running at around 2000rpm in gear warms the engine nicely and gives a full calorifier of hot water, plus putting a bit of charge into the batteries. do that once a month or so throughout the winter. Also part of the Volvo service routine - at least with the dealer who did mine.

 

[MapisM]

That is an advantage we sailboat owners have with our little diesels.

That's actually very feasible also with D boats - particularly one engine at a time.
It ain't so much a matter of how big the engine is, more of whether the prop pitch is designed to handle a range from idle to 10 knots, rather than from idle to 30...

 

[jfm]

Hey dont shoot the messenger, jfm. This was Julien from Tecnoyachts who have been doing MAN servicing for donkeys years apparently and Julien's father before him so I guess they know a thing or two about MAN engines. And the conversation wasnt in a bar, it was on my boat during a debrief about the service he had done on my MAN engines

I'm only shooting the message! You can either do as many mechanics (or sons of mechanics) and bar chatters say, which is run a modern diesel cold and run at idle when they stay cold longest, or you can do as engine designers and proper engineers the world over will invariably advise, incl Latestarter, which is avoid running them cold, and start them in winter lay-up much less frequently than once/month, and in the season start them just before you leave the dock and get them running under some load asap to get them hot, ie don't warm them up before leaving the dock.

 

[jfm]

And who knows, he might have an engineering degree too !

Haha! So 3 blokes are giving you conflicting advice on your forthcoming open heart surgery: one, who "might" be a doctor but you really don't have a clue, says do A, while the other two who definitely are doctors say do B. You're free to choose Pete

 

[MapisM]

run a modern diesel cold

J, I guess you didn't have a particular reason to specify that, or did you?
AFAIK, what you are saying is also true for mechanical engines...
...of which I'm soon going to have 4 to deal with - hence the curiosity! :nonchalance:

 

[petem]

Haha! So 3 blokes are giving you conflicting advice on your forthcoming open heart surgery: one, who "might" be a doctor but you really don't have a clue, says do A, while the other two who definitely are doctors say do B. You're free to choose Pete

LOL

Putting it another way (Latestarter aside), I've got a foreign practicing doctor who probably has a medical degree but I can't be sure and a bloke with a sh1t hot medical degree that sits in an office everyday and practices medicine on himself and doles out advice to people on an internet forum! .........

But as a non doctor / non engineer (myself) I suspect the marginal difference between the two approaches is so slim it's hardly worth worrying about.

 

[jfm]

J, I guess you didn't have a particular reason to specify that, or did you?
AFAIK, what you are saying is also true for mechanical engines...
...of which I'm soon going to have 4 to deal with - hence the curiosity! :nonchalance:

Hmm, tricky. Yes I did say it deliberately. First: non electronic engines fire when they fire and squirt diesel in from the get go. There is no electronic delay to allow oil to be pumped during cranking. Second, machining is so much better nowadays that the moving parts fit better on modern engines and are less scratchy. So, with an old engine there is merit in portofino's comment about not letting the oil drain away, imho.
Four engines- have you got two gensets in the DP? Nice!

 

[jfm]

LOL

Putting it another way (Latestarter aside), I've got a foreign practicing doctor who probably has a medical degree but I can't be sure and a bloke with a sh1t hot medical degree that sits in an office everyday and practices medicine on himself and doles out advice to people on an internet forum! .........

But as a non doctor / non engineer (myself) I suspect the marginal difference between the two approaches is so slim it's hardly worth worrying about.

Nice return Pete! :encouragement:. Try it again without the "probably" that you sneaked in: "I've got a foreign practising guy who is very unlikely to be a doctor and most of his customers don't need him to be, but I suppose there's an outside chance that he could be, and a bloke...".

 

[MapisM]

Hmm, tricky. Yes I did say it deliberately. First: non electronic engines fire when they fire and squirt diesel in from the get go. There is no electronic delay to allow oil to be pumped during cranking. Second, machining is so much better nowadays that the moving parts fit better on modern engines and are less scratchy. So, with an old engine there is merit in portofino's comment about not letting the oil drain away, imho.
Four engines- have you got two gensets in the DP? Nice!

Actually, I saw some merit in the "not let the oil drain away" principle anyhow, because also in electronic engines a thin oil layer is still good to prevent oxidation, if nothing else.
At the end of the day, I suppose it's also a matter of time - gut feeling tells me that not turning on the things for the whole winter isn't a great idea... Maybe every couple of months or three?
Unless properly winterized and stored, of course.

Anyway, nope, the DP has a single genset (I only came across one twin genset setup in sub-60 footers).
Besides, for gensets obviously it's easy peasy to run them "properly" now and then, also without moving the boat.
I was referring to the fact that I'm still the proud owner of a couple of old Cats, soon to be joined by 10 years younger MANs, but still mechanic.
The very last version of their mechanical V8s, in fact. Something which I like, in principle - as well as their separate levers, though I'm aware that not many will agree with that!

 

[petem]

Nice return Pete! :encouragement:. Try it again without the "probably" that you sneaked in: "I've got a foreign practising guy who is very unlikely to be a doctor and most of his customers don't need him to be, but I suppose there's an outside chance that he could be, and a bloke...".

At this point, I concede defeat (on the basis that you'll tell me the mechanics was that smart he'd be owning the boats instead of mending them)!

 

[TonyR123]

Back to the original question.

I have mine cleaned every 2 weeks. Inside cleaned on an ad hoc basis. Email or txt and everything sorted before I arrive for a weekend. They also look after the boat during winds (this is invaluable). Had a few scratches which they sorted. They also deliver boats so I have no problem with them taking the boat out of the water to get cleaned or serviced or start engines if needed (but not bothered by this too much with modern engines). Price is based on a per foot (length) basis. Based in portals.

Unfortunately price goes up with the next boat due in just over a month

 

[Tranona]

Haha! So 3 blokes are giving you conflicting advice on your forthcoming open heart surgery: one, who "might" be a doctor but you really don't have a clue, says do A, while the other two who definitely are doctors say do B. You're free to choose Pete

However, when you spend as much time with medics as I do with my condition you find they are just like economists. Ask 5 for an opinion and you will get 6 answers. I am currently looked after (since my kidney transplant) by 3 "teams" of consultants. The renal team has 5 and I see all of them randomly. They talk to each other and share information but each one is completely different to deal with and often have different ideas about how to deal with the complications. I then have to deal with conflicting advice from the cardiologist where it overlaps with the kidney issues. Waiting to see the urologist who will no doubt have different ideas on how to deal with the urine related issues.

Always a bit of fun when I have to explain to other medics about the rather unorthodox heart surgery I had - a raised eyebrow and lets move on is the usual reaction!

So your lovely big engines and the conflicting advice you get from "experts" seems to follow the same pattern.

 

[Portofino]

Haha! So 3 blokes are giving you conflicting advice on your forthcoming open heart surgery: one, who "might" be a doctor but you really don't have a clue, says do A, while the other two who definitely are doctors say do B. You're free to choose Pete

Pete speak to the mortuary technicians 1st ---- then choose which guys advice to follow .


Those that can do it -do it --
Those that can,t do it - end up teaching it
Those that can,t teach it -write books on it .
Those that can,t write books on it end up - examining it .
Those that can,t examine it -end up a professor s in it .

Back to marine Engines --Who are you going to listen to -.accepting they have differring opinions

- guy that's fixing them all day ,getting dirty hands (Mike F,s contact for example ) or Volvo Paul re Vp stuff

Or Prof of Mech eng -professor Prat @ a prestige Uni ?

I know where I would look for advice .

 

[MapisM]

Back to marine Engines --Who are you going to listen to

L, the answer is bound to be it depends, I reckon.
If I must evaluate (as I am ATM) whether to have the heat exchangers cleaned now or postpone the job, I try to understand from a mechanic who did the very same job every other week in the last 20 years what is better to do - even regardless, to some extent, of the builder maintenance schedule!
But in this debate we are trying to establish whether it's good for the engines to run them for 10 mins at idle every month or not, and neither those who always did that nor those who didn't can prove that their strategy is the best, because there's no countercheck on that.
Therefore, any opinion can only be based on engineering theories, and with all due respect for the folks with the "dirty hands", I never came across one of them who knows a tenth of what Latestarter knows about diesel engines design.

 

[MapisM]

when you spend as much time with medics as I do with my condition

I wasn't aware of it, that must be tough...
I neither can nor want to give you a 7th opinion, but I suppose that wishing you all the very best for your health couldn't hurt! :encouragement:

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

From an engineering point of view (especially modern last four decades turbo engines etc), starting them idle without giving any load and temperature is more harm then good.

Now if you can give a bit of load, giving gear in the marina or a short trip (even better) starting them once a month (or every two months), and to put temperature up is healthy.
Whatever theory an engineer or mechanic might come up this is the correct schedule.

If you start without giving temperature and load its useless.

 

[Bouba]

Its not only the engines are more high tech and built to higher tolerances but the oil is also very high tech and doesn't drain off surfaces when left for long periods

 

[Portofino]

Ŵ

L, the answer is bound to be it depends, I reckon.
If I must evaluate (as I am ATM) whether to have the heat exchangers cleaned now or postpone the job, I try to understand from a mechanic who did the very same job every other week in the last 20 years what is better to do - even regardless, to some extent, of the builder maintenance schedule!
But in this debate we are trying to establish whether it's good for the engines to run them for 10 mins at idle every month or not, and neither those who always did that nor those who didn't can prove that their strategy is the best, because there's no countercheck on that.
Therefore, any opinion can only be based on engineering theories, and with all due respect for the folks with the "dirty hands", I never came across one of them who knows a tenth of what Latestarter knows about diesel engines design.

Mike F,s "Julian " never said idle for 10 mins --re read what Mike said .
Infact he went on to say ( unless I miss understood ) idle is bad .

Only recently I ran mine up to 1900 rpm @ the dock in N --.

It boils down to if you subscribe to periodic running em up in N ( not idle ) over the winter ---trusting /delegating someone else .
Or leaving em for -in my case 6-7 months to dry .
Remember it's ALl fliuds that get pushed around not just the oil. -- coolant ,seawater and impeller excercises , fuel pushed through pump , filters and injectors etc .

Re Longgevity - and reliability or turned around frequent unscheduled visits and parts from engineer.-- try and find out the common denominators .


Re HE descale --- MAN service book ( professor Pratt from Hiedleburg Uni ) who wrote it suggest strip down every iirc 3 or 5 y ?
But if they are 82 all day 1650-1800 rpm maybe rising to 84 ish when blatting @ 2000rpm in August -warm 26-28 sea .temp then why worry ?

They will tell you ,you will know when it's time for a descale , or my point the local MAN fixer or his dad will advise .

 

[Portofino]

If you start without giving temperature and load its useless.

Agreed

 

[Portofino]

Its not only the engines are more high tech and built to higher tolerances but the oil is also very high tech and doesn't drain off surfaces when left for long periods

Other fliud s and the seawater system needs a turn -flush ----- it's not just the Oil

They don,t pack up cos the oil s gone off or not worked -- it's the other systems that create a big €€€€ bill .

Eg let's take a sensor an oil P one -it's been stud 6/12 dormant from Oct until Easter .
It's ceased up .Lack of use kaput

Yup modern all singing n dancing latest EDC What ever the marketing boys call it

1- alarm sounds
2- interlock prevents firing .
3- starts but drops into "safe " mode
4- all of the above

Engineer arrives -- lap top job -part is €140 ---on back order --funny that --MAN have ran out ! in April !
Labour -back n forth etc €1000 inc tax

Engineer says --these only " go " in his experiance in boats that lie dormant --
But he's not bothered it his bread n butter --- ask the mortuary technition - the guy that's dealing with dead engines every day , what's the comman denominator ?