Gardiennage - how much of it do you have / do you need?

[PEJ]

I am looking at getting someone to provide a gardiennage service for me in Mallorca and the latest person I have spoken to assures me that I need the boat cleaned and maintained every week. That by cleaning it every week it stays cleaner and is easier to clean. Starting the engines, air con, generator regularly is better then leaving them for months. In the long run all this saves money because expensive repairs due to neglect are avoided.

Once a week seems a bit much for cleaning but maybe he's right about the systems?

So the question for remote owners is how much gardiennage do you have and, if you don't mind saying, how much do you pay?

 

[Bouba]

I am looking at getting someone to provide a gardiennage service for me in Mallorca and the latest person I have spoken to assures me that I need the boat cleaned and maintained every week. That by cleaning it every week it stays cleaner and is easier to clean. Starting the engines, air con, generator regularly is better then leaving them for months. In the long run all this saves money because expensive repairs due to neglect are avoided.

Once a week seems a bit much for cleaning but maybe he's right about the systems?

So the question for remote owners is how much gardiennage do you have and, if you don't mind saying, how much do you pay?

He might be right about the cleaning but I do not believe in starting the engines and not going anywhere

 

[Portofino]

We have been using this guy since 2005
http://deckside.fr/maintenance-bateau/
With the Sunseeker he did all the annual maintenance too up to recently .
Now I have more time on my hands and a mate handy with spanners I do the annual stuff with the Itama .But they book the yard for me and liaise with the yard for any jobs .
Like new black pipes ,and new g box hydraulic pipes and seacock s/ skin fittings last year --- all done inbetween our visits .

Currently I,am having a couple of new glass pannals - deckside got the quotes -- they know where to go .
How ever he still does the Guardienarge -- ours is cleaned every two weeks.
Engines Aircon ,Geny bogs flushed about every month .
I just txt him a day or two before we arrive -boat is prepped cushions out , fridge s on and if an afternoon arrival in high summer the air con is on .
But over the years it's the access to professional fixers and the fact they usually come that day and invioce deckside ,so I pay later .
Two recent examples
Tv ariel bad reception --old guy arrives on a bike ,1/2 hour later redoes all the ariel conections -replaces my DIY connectors with proper ones -- working € 40 only .
No water pressure one Am -with in the hour two guys arrive and fit a new pump and wire it up correctly so the led on the panal works as well .There's no way I could have figured that out -thing is they have a van full of adaptors and fittings -saves a fustrating day pratting about .

A few years ago with the Sunseeker I thought I,d have a go at changing the primary fuel filters to have a lookin the metal bowl ,to see if any signs of the bug .
Silly me cocked up the bleeding and got air in it -- would not start .
With in the hour my -VP engineer arrives -- bleeds it properly -has a laugh and tells me not to touch em again
No charge .

They Allways redo the fenders /lines and ck after storms .
Best bit is after" red rain " they send a lad early to wash it ( while we are in port ) and if a heavey dew lad arrives and dries it --- nice touch .

As regarding residuals -- hard to say I,ve only sold one took 3 weeks and "professionally maintained " was mentioned sware in the particulars .
I recall I had a few gel coat dings repaired again all organised for me and the rear haunches reprinted when the SS was 5-7 y old ? -- again all done in my absence .
I,can't recall how much I pay for this service sorry -- but boat is unused from end of Oct to May
I did drive down ( from Switzerland ) last 1/2 term Feb and every thing worked -as it should nowts bust !

It's just nice to have some one look after it and organise it .

If you opt for them to do the annual they e-mail a photo graphic record of all the stages .

 

[petem]

I am looking at getting someone to provide a gardiennage service for me in Mallorca and the latest person I have spoken to assures me that I need the boat cleaned and maintained every week. That by cleaning it every week it stays cleaner and is easier to clean. Starting the engines, air con, generator regularly is better then leaving them for months. In the long run all this saves money because expensive repairs due to neglect are avoided.

Once a week seems a bit much for cleaning but maybe he's right about the systems?

So the question for remote owners is how much gardiennage do you have and, if you don't mind saying, how much do you pay?

Barry Lawrence comes highly regarded. I'll email you his details later if you're interested.

Pete

 

[PEJ]

Barry Lawrence comes highly regarded. I'll email you his details later if you're interested.

Pete

Yes please do. Thanks Pete.

 

[jfm]

Each to own really but I would want a clean every week (I employ someone full time 365 days so it gets cleaned constantly). However that might be luxury not necessary, and I wouldn't disagree/criticise a system where it gets cleaned just before you arrive and then say once every month otherwise.

It's not just cleaning with bucket and mop. It's polishing the acres of stainless steel, cleaning the teak without harsh chemicals, doing all the awkward bits cotton budd-ishly, topping up the a-Glaze methodically section by section (or whatever coating you use), putting the covers thru the washing machine, plus all the interior. If you get a bit OCD about all that, you suddenly are consuming a lot of guardiennage time

I absolutely wouldn't have engines started once a week. That's nuts. I don't want a guardienage bloke even touching my engines! I'm 100% happy to leave them unstarted for say 3 months, though that doesn't happen in my case

 

[adey]

I pay 50euros a month to have the outside cleaned (monthly). Not because I care about residuals, it's worth sod all anyway, or because I care about the gel coat; I just think it's nice to arrive to a clean boat. Previously, I'd arrive to a dirty boat and spend half a day cleaning it, which seemed daft.
Now I send an email a few days before I arrive and they sort it out.
They clean it far better than I ever could anyway and now I can relax as soon as I get there. Money well spent.
They initially advised cleaning it once a fortnight but I'm a tight git and only visit once a month anyway.

 

[DAW]

We're based in SoF and our boat is used every week during the summer months, but only occasionally through the winter. We have opted for full guardiennage service from a local company based in the port and have been with them for the last five years. They wash the boat every week of the year, polish and clean s/s, teak, etc. on a rolling program and check lines, fenders, etc. on a daily basis. We've agreed that they will check fluids, mechanical items, etc. each week and report any problems, but not do anything without checking with me first. They run up all of the domestic systems each week, but don't start the engines. The same company takes care of the annual maintenance (lift, antifoul, etc.) and coordinates with the local shipyard, Sunseeker service and MAN dealer, etc. when necessary.

The biggest benefits are convenience, peace of mind and access to a network of reliable and cost effective local contractors. The boat is always cleaned, prepped and made ready for the weekend on Friday morning. Laundry, etc. is always done and returned promptly. "Red rain" is washed off immediately and if anything breaks it is usually fixed by the following weekend and at reasonable cost. Its reassuring to know that if bad weather is forecast, someone will check everything and then be on 24 hour call to deal with any problems.

In terms of cost, its about the same as the annual servicing of engines and generator, which I think is a bargain for having everything ready and not having to worry about doing anything other than tinkering and enjoying using the boat.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I pay €500 a month for a guardiennage service in Antibes which includes the following

Cleaning interior/exterior every 2 weeks and before/after we use boat
Putting all covers on after we leave and taking them off before we arrive
Regularly checking lines/fenders
Monthly start up/run engines, gennie, aircon

On the subject of starting/running engines, I was told the other day by an experienced MAN engineer that it is advisable to start the engines and run at idle at least every month but for no longer than 10 mins. The idea is to get the mechanical bits and oil/coolant moving but not to run the engines too long because running from cold at idle causes wear

FWIW I used to pay €300 in Carloforte for an exterior/interior clean every time so €500/month for the above service is reasonable IMHO. I also put other maintenance tasks through the same company and they told me upfront that they get a 10% kickback from the supplier for this which again I find reasonable. Having a trustworthy single point of contact for all jobs on the boat is worth it for me

 

[MapisM]

On the subject of starting/running engines, I was told the other day by an experienced MAN engineer that it is advisable to start the engines and run at idle at least every month but for no longer than 10 mins. The idea is to get the mechanical bits and oil/coolant moving but not to run the engines too long because running from cold at idle causes wear

Now, that's interesting, because I half recall Latestarter to have once said that what you were suggested is pointless...
In a week or so, I will also meet a MAN specialist, will ask also his view and report back.

 

[Portofino]

Now, that's interesting, because I half recall Latestarter to have once said that what you were suggested is pointless...
In a week or so, I will also meet a MAN specialist, will ask also his view and report back.

With classic car storage (petrols ) if left for long periods the unused the oil at the top end -eventually runs down from the head and under the con rods --top end drys up .
Valve guides being particulary vulnerable to premature wear if allowed to dry !

Rings and bores dry too bearings not in the sump if wet dry up .Although some cars are dry sump -but boat diesels are all wet sump -so your big end ,s should be ok ,but in a V8 or v12 or any multi cylinder one or more may park above the oil level in the sump .
fine oil journals may glog up if left for months on end -- sure a few minutes after a long dormant period the oil pressure may unblock them -but Pitty the component they feed !

Any rubber seals dry and get a set , think impeller on your boat .
Also depending on out side temp /humidity -condensation perhaps --- maybe less so in the Med .

Starter motors can dry cease up .Diesel may gel sludge in fine parts of the pump ? Coolant if old may seperate out -sludge as well .

This is different to a fully prepped partially stripped engine placed in storage , or "winterised "

On a boat salt deposits are more likely to form in the HE s if left for months on end without circulation .

So for me starting up regularly through the closed season in my mind helps circulate the fluids ,esp the oil to the top of the engine in the head and circulate fresh fuel in the fuel lines .

The only downer is if they are not operated for long enough @ the periodic start up to get warmed up properly .
Here a cold early shut down may lead to a excessive bulid up of nasty low ph acidic toxins that eat away inside the cylinder
,piston crown and valve gear.

 

[Portofino]

On the subject of starting/running engines, I was told the other day by an experienced MAN engineer that it is advisable to start the engines and run at idle at least every month but for no longer than 10 mins. The idea is to get the mechanical bits and oil/coolant moving but not to run the engines too long because running from cold at idle causes wear

me

You should run them up to temp @ say 1500 rpm ,spool up the turbos in N .
MAN engines all over cool at idle when in N -@ the dock - seawater pumps despite thermostats are specced for water vol at turbo rpm 1400 upwards were the real heat is produced and needs to be got rid

The MAN manual actually states do not idle for more than 5 mins --turn them off --they cool down too much and the diesel does not burn properly leading to a build up of toxic substances eating away at the metal .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Now, that's interesting, because I half recall Latestarter to have once said that what you were suggested is pointless...
In a week or so, I will also meet a MAN specialist, will ask also his view and report back.

This guy is a very experienced technician from a MAN specialist and I asked him specifically (on Monday this week) whether it was better to leave a boat over winter without starting engines (as I normally do) or start engines on a regular basis and this was his answer. He did say that the worst thing you can do is start the engines in the berth and leave them running at idle or low rpm for a long period in the hope that they will get to operating temp because he said that the engine will never properly reach operating temp under this condition and all that you are doing is causing wear. Of course he also said that the best thing you can do is use the boat regularly and get the engines upto operating temp under load

Interested to hear what your MAN technician says because I suspect that everybody has a different opinion

 

[jfm]

On the subject of starting/running engines, I was told the other day by an experienced MAN engineer that it is advisable to start the engines and run at idle at least every month but for no longer than 10 mins. The idea is to get the mechanical bits and oil/coolant moving but not to run the engines too long because running from cold at idle causes wear

Now, that's interesting, because I half recall Latestarter to have once said that what you were suggested is pointless...
In a week or so, I will also meet a MAN specialist, will ask also his view and report back.

Mike, he was a mechanic. Any rational engineering analysis -latestarter's for starters- says don't run them like that, whatever anyone in a bar might say. They're cold the whole time (urgh) with almost no fuel burnt to make heat. Modern engines are perfectly happy standing still for longer than a month.

As regards porto's comments, you don't want to compare with classic cars. Electronic diesels don't inject fuel until the starter motor has run the oil pump for a second, thereby getting the oil to where it needs to be before a firing stroke. And the machined surfaces are a much much better fit than in a classic car, such are advances in engineering in last 20 yrs or whatever.

The one useful aspect of starting engines is winter is to spin the shafts. That kills early barnacles in the cutlass bearings and exercises the shaft seals whether stuffing box or lip seal. To do this you have to put boat in gear while tied up, which needs doing VERY carefully on a coarse pitched P boat like Mike's ferretti, so I would never let a guardienage person do it.

 

[MapisM]

Interested to hear what your MAN technician says because I suspect that everybody has a different opinion

LOL, I also do. But will let you know anyway.
Meanwhile, fwiw, it seems that there's a general consensus that MAN engines (as well as MTUs, at least till they were based on the same 183 block) stay cool forever, unless they run under some load.
One of the implications being that it's pointless to turn them on much in advance before leaving the dock, and rather warm them up progressively with the gear engaged.

 

[MapisM]

To do this you have to put boat in gear while tied up, which needs doing VERY carefully on a coarse pitched P boat like Mike's ferretti, so I would never let a guardienage person do it.

Yup, all agreed.
On your last point above, with any P boat the problem is that even at idle, the props pull is pretty strong.
Obviously, that can be done one engine at a time, but that's still quite some load on the mooring lines...

 

[jfm]

Yup, all agreed.
On your last point above, with any P boat the problem is that even at idle, the props pull is pretty strong.
Obviously, that can be done one engine at a time, but that's still quite some load on the mooring lines...

yes that's exactly my point when I said "VERY". I put mine into gear a couple of times for just half a second. There is no way you could leave them in gear for a long period. That's why I would never ask a guardianage person to do it and I don't ask my stewardess. You need to know exactly what you're doing before you do this.

 

[Bouba]

If the hand book say don't idle the engine out of gear then don't do it. These are written by the engineers who designed the engine. When Thomas Telford built the Pontcysyllte Viaduct he specified sheep fat for lubrication and that is what is still used today because he said so. The original engineer is always first point of reference.
I wish I had a full time guardianage and a stewardess

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, he was a mechanic. Any rational engineering analysis -latestarter's for starters- says don't run them like that, whatever anyone in a bar might say. They're cold the whole time (urgh) with almost no fuel burnt to make heat. Modern engines are perfectly happy standing still for longer than a month. .

Hey dont shoot the messenger, jfm. This was Julien from Tecnoyachts who have been doing MAN servicing for donkeys years apparently and Julien's father before him so I guess they know a thing or two about MAN engines. And the conversation wasnt in a bar, it was on my boat during a debrief about the service he had done on my MAN engines

 

[petem]

Hey dont shoot the messenger, jfm. This was Julien from Tecnoyachts who have been doing MAN servicing for donkeys years apparently and Julien's father before him so I guess they know a thing or two about MAN engines. And the conversation wasnt in a bar, it was on my boat during a debrief about the service he had done on my MAN engines

And who knows, he might have an engineering degree too !