G70 chain

[NormanS]

It's a very common way in the Med as you know whether the shore lines are 3m to a quay or 50m back to rocks and it does seem to work well for those who have dug their anchors in. You can't really swing around the ropes joining point as you would bash the other boats alongside you anchored in the same configuration.

Maybe they usually have better weather there?

 

[RupertW]

Maybe they usually have better weather there?

Well it's a lot gustier and with more waterspouts than the English Channel - I don't remember 70 knot gusts in the Summer there. But you deal with those middle of the night issues in boxer shorts rather than oilskins so I suppose the weather is better.

 

[geem]

A mizzen set as a riding sail can only "do something" when the wind strikes it at an angle. Think of a servo pendulum vane gear as a comparable case. When the wind is from ahead, all the mizzen can do is flog itself to bits. Once the boat has started a sheer, the mizzen will fill with wind and do something - probably to increase the oscillation.

We are assuming that a boat at anchor will be wind rode but in many parts of the world she will be tide rode, so a riding sail will be worse than useless.

In my capacity as Resident Dinosaur, I'd suggest giving the boat a sheer - by lashing the helm down of course, and, case need, by putting a spring on the cable. Boats I have owned have settled down nicely when I did this, even when the tide turned...

Not the case at all. With a fully battened mizzen with a loose foot you can simply tension it a little so it is rigid. There is no thrashing and no noise at all. The mizzen in this case then simply acts like the tail fin on a 747 and keeps it pointing straight ahead. Where we have been in tidal waters we have set the mizzen down the track so at to point us slightly out of the wind. You can give the boat a sheer like this

 

[Neeves]

Well it's a lot gustier and with more waterspouts than the English Channel - I don't remember 70 knot gusts in the Summer there. But you deal with those middle of the night issues in boxer shorts rather than oilskins so I suppose the weather is better.

In Patagonia and Tierra Del Fuego, where the winds are brisk and we never found any summer, there are 2 characteristics of cruising yachts. They all have chimneys, I've never seen so many chimneys! They also all carry around 4 sets of ropes to moor to shore, about 200m long. The ropes are kept variously, reels at base of mast is common as are reels on the transom. many simply keep the ropes in sail bags, one has a length in a laundry bin. A cat had what looked like turtles just behind each bow ties to the lifelines. Every time they anchor - they use shore lines. Their anchors are not oversize, or not noticeably so - so no-ome has a monster anchor, most have just one on the bow roller but a selection of smaller ones on the transom. Few have modern anchors. To me it appeared their reliance was on shore lines - not the anchor.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

In Patagonia and Tierra Del Fuego, where the winds are brisk and we never found any summer, there are 2 characteristics of cruising yachts. They all have chimneys, I've never seen so many chimneys! They also all carry around 4 sets of ropes to moor to shore, about 200m long. The ropes are kept variously, reels at base of mast is common as are reels on the transom. many simply keep the ropes in sail bags, one has a length in a laundry bin. A cat had what looked like turtles just behind each bow ties to the lifelines. Every time they anchor - they use shore lines. Their anchors are not oversize, or not noticeably so - so no-ome has a monster anchor, most have just one on the bow roller but a selection of smaller ones on the transom. Few have modern anchors. To me it appeared their reliance was on shore lines - not the anchor.

Jonathan

Is it not also the case that the areas that you mention are notorious for having very poor and unreliable holding, due to the prevalence of kelpy bottoms? If I couldn't find reliable areas for anchoring, I might be tempted to rig lines to the shore. Thankfully, I have had to do this only once.

 

[RupertW]

Is it not also the case that the areas that you mention are notorious for having very poor and unreliable holding, due to the prevalence of kelpy bottoms? If I couldn't find reliable areas for anchoring, I might be tempted to rig lines to the shore. Thankfully, I have had to do this only once.

In warm waters it is a surprisingly fun thing to do - find some rocky inlet and go for a swim to the rocks. We have 2x 200m floating warp in the stern locker for leading to shore. The triangle of anchor and two stern ropes works really well and in some tiny bays it would have been even better to have two off the bows to either side of the bay instead of the anchor but then it would have been more hassle to leave if the conditions suddenly changed.

 

[Neeves]

In warm waters it is a surprisingly fun thing to do - find some rocky inlet and go for a swim to the rocks. We have 2x 200m floating warp in the stern locker for leading to shore. The triangle of anchor and two stern ropes works really well and in some tiny bays it would have been even better to have two off the bows to either side of the bay instead of the anchor but then it would have been more hassle to leave if the conditions suddenly changed.

And used in the Baltic all the time, except they commonly have stern anchors and anchor bow in.

'Anchoring' is not only about anchors

 

[GHA]

GHA,

As we seem to have drifted.

I'm interested in your Bahamian moor, Ive only once had the need and did not use it.

I know the theory, 2 rodes off the bow in a straight line with the vessel moored at the centre of the line. Anchors at the end of each rode allow the vessel to sit to wind or tides that move through 180 degrees.

One rode is presumably the primary rode and the other the secondary rode, that most of us keep in a locker. You deploy the secondary rode - how do you stop the 2 rodes twisting round each other. I assume you attach to a swivel but where, how is the swivel attached.

Its not that much of a drift - as with a smaller link there is less room to attach anything, or it needs to be small - and also HT.

Jonathan

Actually it's probably bad wording on my part, as much a shallow vee as bahamian. The anchorage is small running west/east with land & local open little fishing boats moored on one side to the north and a channel with lots of Portuguese local ferries, trawlers, local open fishing boats day and night to the south. So I have about 25m main chain out with a 25Kg spade running west then it just so happened wind/current was pushing the boat east so I rowed out the other anchor in the dinghy to the east, 20Kg rocna, 5m chain and about 20m 12mm polyester (spare halyard) attached to the main rode with a alpine butterfly/soft shackle then the long tail back to a cleat onboard . The angle could do with being less shallow between the rodes but space dictates otherwise.
Just starting to get a few twists now, there was another thread recently trying to figure out a way of reducing the twisting but I gave up, it was all getting too complicated.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?481348-Bahamian-mooring-stop-the-twists

Attaching to smaller chain - a dyneema strop/loop round the chain with a prusik knot might be worth a go...

As for the angle, 120 degrees is the magic number with the load on each anchor equalling the load from the boat, I'm probably shallower than that at the moment but the only loads are really from the wind, not much wave action here -

Held well so far anyway in some gusting 30Kts from the north.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks GHA, NormanS' answer seems the best - but all of the suggestions sound slightly more complicated than one would desire as I agree with a comment you made, complicated anchoring set ups come back to bite you ate 3am. NormanS has some nice useful little tricks and simple gadgets up his sleeve - including his 'anchor righter' - I wonder what else he has in his magic sack. Pity he did not offer a picture of his inverted saucer.

One answer must be to have a reliable anchor in the first place - but if you are leaving your boat for an extended period you never know if an unreliable event may come along! and I suspect you might not sleep well. Furthermore your use was really to maximise the use of your ground tackle to minimise the space you were using - and in your anchorage tying to trees does not look a very realistic option . and shore lines might have been frowned upon anyway

Don't you have a lighter reliable anchor to row out than a 25kg Rocna (easy to row but less easy to retrieve).

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

, NormanS' answer seems the best -

...................

Don't you have a lighter reliable anchor to row out than a 25kg Rocna (easy to row but less easy to retrieve).

Jonathan

Not sure how Normans metal disc is any different from a soft shackle other than being heavier? Both go through the chain AFAICS?

There is a (unused!) fortress taken apart and stashed in a locker which really does need to be made ready for action, but that particular day the rocna was closer to hand. Retrieval should be ok, let out main rode and motor over to the other one then use the windlass capstan to get it back up. Hopefully

 

[NormanS]

Not sure how Normans metal disc is any different from a soft shackle other than being heavier? Both go through the chain AFAICS?

There is a (unused!) fortress taken apart and stashed in a locker which really does need to be made ready for action, but that particular day the rocna was closer to hand. Retrieval should be ok, let out main rode and motor over to the other one then use the windlass capstan to get it back up. Hopefully

My inverted saucer, with its tubular upstand, is clamped to the chain, but the rope rode is made fast to a large bow shackle which is free to rotate on the tube. This means that it cannot, and does not twist. It's not the sort of thing that I would rig for a single night's anchoring. At present my boat is anchored for four weeks in the Outer Hebrides (Two weeks to go ), and that's how she is anchored. If anyone is interested, I could PM a photo to you.

 

[GHA]

My inverted saucer, with its tubular upstand, is clamped to the chain, but the rope rode is made fast to a large bow shackle which is free to rotate on the tube. This means that it cannot, and does not twist. It's not the sort of thing that I would rig for a single night's anchoring. At present my boat is anchored for four weeks in the Outer Hebrides (Two weeks to go ), and that's how she is anchored. If anyone is interested, I could PM a photo to you.

Ah, makes perfect sense now ta. Clever

 

[Neeves]

Not sure how Normans metal disc is any different from a soft shackle other than being heavier? Both go through the chain AFAICS?

There is a (unused!) fortress taken apart and stashed in a locker which really does need to be made ready for action, but that particular day the rocna was closer to hand. Retrieval should be ok, let out main rode and motor over to the other one then use the windlass capstan to get it back up. Hopefully

The advantage (and disadvantage) of cats is they have big lockers waiting to be filled - and we can keep our Fortress fully assembled. Our situations are different as once our need for a second anchor (usually brought about by stronger wind) eases the winds might still be contrary (so we will remain where we are) and we use that time to retrieve the second anchor and rode, by dinghy - sometimes its struggle.

Its now a case of confidence of soft shackles or metal discs left alone for longer periods of time.

It might be all in the mind (I suspect the problem with G70) but its still there.

A rope dealer here has been selling soft shackles and the customers, more than one, use to join anchor to the chain. These are based on SK99 with a hollow braided dyneema outer cover. The cover itself provides part of the strength and it also protects the inner core from abrasion. If the cover is damaged - you would see it (hopefully you would notice before the core damages). -Theoretically its fine, they are strong and shown to be abrasion resistant - but I shudder, ever so slightly, I can be as old fashioned and intransigent as the next man - a real luddite.

So I would be happy with soft shackles to attach snubber to chain - because its not the critical component but where its critical, less confident.

 

[thinwater]

... A rope dealer here has been selling soft shackles and the customers, more than one, use to join anchor to the chain. These are based on SK99 with a hollow braided dyneema outer cover. The cover itself provides part of the strength and it also protects the inner core from abrasion. If the cover is damaged - you would see it (hopefully you would notice before the core damages). -Theoretically its fine, they are strong and shown to be abrasion resistant - but I shudder, ever so slightly, I can be as old fashioned and intransigent as the next man - a real luddite....

I'm happy with a rope spliced to chain. There is little chafe between the rope and the chain, even if there is movement, because it is easier for the next link to pivot than the splice. But this is different; there will be high-load movement between the anchor and the chain, and there will also be sand and grit imbedded in the soft shackle. However, if they are using a large shackle on the anchor and the soft shackle between the large shackle and the last link, the same logic should apply... unless the large shackle jams.

I'm happy using a Dyneema lead in some circumstances, covered with a chafe cover. BUT the leader is connected to the anchor with a steel shackle. However, it is the same large shackle. I suppose it could jam, but that has not been a problem. I've been using this for several years. But it is on my kedge/secondary; it only gets used a few dozen times each year and it is not primary.

What if you added 2-3 links of large BBB between the first shackle and the soft shackle? Motion would be eliminated. But it feels complicated for little gain.

I'm not quite feeling it.

 

[GHA]

I'm happy with a rope spliced to chain. There is little chafe between the rope and the chain, even if there is movement, because it is easier for the next link to pivot than the splice. But this is different; there will be high-load movement between the anchor and the chain, and there will also be sand and grit imbedded in the soft shackle. However, if they are using a large shackle on the anchor and the soft shackle between the large shackle and the last link, the same logic should apply... unless the large shackle jams.

I'm happy using a Dyneema lead in some circumstances, covered with a chafe cover. BUT the leader is connected to the anchor with a steel shackle. However, it is the same large shackle. I suppose it could jam, but that has not been a problem. I've been using this for several years. But it is on my kedge/secondary; it only gets used a few dozen times each year and it is not primary.

What if you added 2-3 links of large BBB between the first shackle and the soft shackle? Motion would be eliminated. But it feels complicated for little gain.

I'm not quite feeling it.

Been meaning to dig out the cheap usb microscope for a while now.....

This is some d12 max sk99 from a thread a while ago..
http://forums.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?446234-String-for-a-spring/page3

Had a *seriously* tough life being part of the mooring warps on a heavy steel boat getting flung around for a few months in SW UK winter . Image doesn't actually show it that well, but though gone a bit fluffy the majority of fibres are looking OK.

2nd image is tech 12 , again doesn't show up very well but it's lasted well as well - some chafing and slight heat damage.

But all in all the D12 max is exception material, though I'd still be very aware of it in any critical uses.

 

[Neeves]

GHA,

I'm relieved to know I'm not the only one who is twitchy - even though the images, which are fine, show that the Dyneema is holding up well and has probably had more 'life' than most will ever throw at their rode.

The use of the dyneema to attach anchor to chain was to overcome the obstruction caused by shackles in, ever so common, narrow bow rollers, for which the dyneema is perfect.

The ones of which I know have a dyneema braided cover, which should protect the dyneema inside. But the dyneema inside is going to have lots of sand and you cannot see it.


I did think of trying a soft shackle but keep the chain, so have a bit of slack chain and steel shackle but the soft shackle taking the load. I lacked the motivation - and I really am quite happy with a decent shackle, which costs peanuts.

It actually looks like a product looking for an application - as I can see the next problem being the anchor arrives at the bow roller in any aspect, commonly the wrong one, and I cannot see how you ensure it arrives right way up - so you solve one issue and introduce another.


Maybe in 10 years time the application will be common place.