FYI for Greece Cruising

[grumpygit]

I have just copied and pasted this from Greek City Times . . . . .

The Greek government has taken a significant step towards digital modernization by introducing the “e-Charter Permission Application” for yachts. This electronic system now processes applications for various types of sea voyages, including commercial operations, private use, international travel, and empty voyages.

Key Requirements and Eligibility

• Mandatory Possession: All vessels navigating Greek waters must have the e-Charter Permission document in either digital or printed form.
• Applicability: The application is specifically designed for professional pleasure boats exceeding 35 meters (114 feet) in length.
• License Duration: The granted license has a maximum validity period of 28 days.

Types of Permissions:

• Charter Permission: This permission caters to complete charter contracts executed entirely within Greek territory.
• Charter Permission Plus: This permission covers complete charter contracts with either a start or end point within Greek territory.

Simplified Charter Procedures for Non-EU Yachts:

Under the revised e-charter framework, eligible yachts can commence and conclude charters in Greece without the previous requirements of:

• Possessing a Greek charter license
• Establishing a business address within Greece

VAT Regulations Remain in Effect:

It’s crucial to note that despite these streamlined processes, conventional VAT regulations pertaining to Greek VAT continue to apply.

Fostering Maritime Activities and Embracing Digital Advancements:

This initiative marks a notable advancement in Greece’s efforts to:

• Facilitate the activities of boat owners within its territories
• Adapt to the evolving digital landscape
• Enhance efficiency and convenience for maritime stakeholders

The implementation of the e-Charter Permission Application signifies a positive step towards a more streamlined and digitally-enabled maritime sector in Greece.

 

[jordanbasset]

I may be wrong but not sure how many on here this will apply to

'Applicability: The application is specifically designed for professional pleasure boats exceeding 35 meters (114 feet) in length'

 

[Chris_Robb]

I have just copied and pasted this from Greek City Times . . . . .

The Greek government has taken a significant step towards digital modernization by introducing the “e-Charter Permission Application” for yachts. This electronic system now processes applications for various types of sea voyages, including commercial operations, private use, international travel, and empty voyages.

Edit out the Private use bit - this is only for charter and has been around in an analogue for for a long time and an earlier E system. I suspect this is an inporove on the old system - if the Greeks can ever do that!

 

[goeasy123]

I wounder why they can't sort out the cluster **** that relates to the bulk of pleasure craft??

 

[Irish Rover]

I wounder why they can't sort out the cluster **** that relates to the bulk of pleasure craft??

As a non EU resident who regularly visits Greece in my non EU registered, EU VAT unpaid boat, I find their system very workable and only minimally inconvenient. Where's the beef?

 

[grumpygit]

Okay I could have cut and pasted the relevant line but I thought the article may be of interest of how things are going.
Knocking the Greeks for trying to do right is condescending, they are making strides in 'e' modernisation

 

[Chris_Robb]

Okay I could have cut and pasted the relevant line but I thought the article may be of interest of how things are going.
Knocking the Greeks for trying to do right is condescending, they are making strides in 'e' modernisation

I agree, but most of what other departments are doing are screwed up by the AADE an unaccountable body run effectively by the Troika following the Greek bail out. They are beyond political control. I know the issues well as the last 4 years of my life have been taken up with fighting their utter incompetence - pretty unsuccessfully ! In contrast solving fines and getting repayments has been helped by the Ministry of shipping - all frustrated, as the AADE has no method of making repayments to anyone without a Greek tax number... Indeed even Customs have admitted mistaken fines and agreed to refund - only to go silent as they cannot pay!

So Yes - in General the Greeks have done some good stuff - and have been totally let down by the AADE

 

[grumpygit]

I don't have any problems with AADE because I have a tax number (don't forget the taxinet number) so it makes it a lot simpler, but you are the man to educate them Chris

 

[Chris_Robb]

I don't have any problems with AADE because I have a tax number (don't forget the taxinet number) so it makes it a lot simpler, but you are the man to educate them Chris

I am now boatless, have retired from the Cruising Association, and have trained a successor.... its not easy to get into thus as the problems have not been the law but the unbelievable interpretations.

Take the transit log for vat paid yachts. To stop people being fined, it was logical to get people to go and get one to be safe. Result, those people were fined for not having one. So you can't apply logic! So it takes time to understand and anticipate what can go wrong. In the end we took the line (in 2021 early) that if you didn't need one, please don't get one. But face book etc kept on scaring people to get one. Unfortunately this action sowed doubt with the customs so they just assumed the the smaller number of people not getting a log correctly, we're therefore wrong. At no time did the AADE give clear guidelines.... amendments came and went so you got a chain of advisories and withdrawals just quoting a instruction ref, and never was a complete rule published.

 

[andrewAB]

So should I get a UTL for a UK SSR, VAT paid (in Greece), in Greek yard on Brexit day, and haven't left Greek waters since?

Thanks!
Andrew

 

[Chris_Robb]

So should I get a UTL for a UK SSR, VAT paid (in Greece), in Greek yard on Brexit day, and haven't left Greek waters since?

Thanks!
Andrew

Absolutely Not. Where are you based?

 

[andrewAB]

Based in Preveza and haven't had any interaction with Port Police since DEKPA was abolished. Of course I pay the Cruising Tax online for the months I am in the water.

I'm heading to south Peloponese this summer so want to be properly documented - whatever that means!

 

[Sfalkner]

Watch out in Kalamata then. I was fined €300 for not having a TL two years ago. Like you my boat is SSR and was documented as being in Greece on Brexit day. I spent days arguing with them, backed by support from Chris Robb, to no avail. Eventually I had to buy a TL, pay the fine and leave.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Based in Preveza and haven't had any interaction with Port Police since DEKPA was abolished. Of course I pay the Cruising Tax online for the months I am in the water.

I'm heading to south Peloponnese this summer so want to be properly documented - whatever that means!

Preveza is a safe place - if you get pressurised only talk to Stavris Pavlides (a senior customs officer)- he is quite clear on this matter and actually believes that NO transit log for a vat paid yacht should every be issued as its a customs procedure - which is not allowed under the UCC. he bemoans the lack of any guidance from the AADE. The is an Agent - All About Yachts , in Preveza who unfortunately encouraged UK Clients to get UTLs, saying it was anew law. They were just creating business... They have I think stopped now. Remember that the sting in the tail for the UTL (and LTL) is the obligation to check in and out of every port with officials. In the Ionian - you do it when you launch and sail the ionian - port = Ionian+ and when you leave - so not onerous (so whats the point???). But elsewhere from Kalamata onwards, it depends who's on duty!

As the next poster (Stuart Faulkner) says, there are danger points. But at each one where we raised "Petitions" (complaints), although we never have had a response to these cases - the AADE having told us this is the formal way to make a complaint! - the incidents seem to have stopped.... Though I no longer follow facebook things like Medsailing, I have heard nothing further. The other difficult places are Crete, Navplion, and Rhodes, for a different reason - they wont acknowledge Vat Proof for 3rd Country flagged yachts unless the countries customs certify. Fine for UK yachts as HMRC will issue certificates with little evidence - but not for Aussies etc you have to be British registered. So French registers - not good enough - it wants a letter from the French Customs - which they just dont do. The UK does it to help out our citizens and I know there is talk that this might stop....

My successor is in conversation with the new shipping minister (new Government)- with our embassy backing it, to look at stopping the Transit log for Vat paid yachts - but a change in the law is required - luckily this in not an AADE area but refers back to 1953 shipping legislation. We dont expect this will change for NON vat paid yachts.

My knowledge now is getting out of date..... so I will not really continue to advise on this....

To keep in the picture, join the CA! Seriously please do not rely on social media - which probably has caused half the problem....

 

[andrewAB]

Thanks Chris!
My VAT was paid in Greece when the boat left Sunsail charter. I have original documents with lots of stamps in Greek so hopefully have a compelling story to tell. I've also got yard receipts in Greece for the last 10 years so lots of evidence.

Thanks again.

Andrew

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thanks Chris!
My VAT was paid in Greece when the boat left Sunsail charter. I have original documents with lots of stamps in Greek so hopefully have a compelling story to tell. I've also got yard receipts in Greece for the last 10 years so lots of evidence.

Thanks again.

Andrew

basically - just dont go to ask customs or Port Police at all - you just dont need to have any contact.

 

[Saltydog461]

Based in Preveza and haven't had any interaction with Port Police since DEKPA was abolished. Of course I pay the Cruising Tax online for the months I am in the water.

I'm heading to south Peloponese this summer so want to be properly documented - whatever that means!

Very similar set up to you Andrew. Boat in Cleo. Explored and set up the paperwork during lockdown if ever needed it, but operated without UTL around Ionian, corfu to Trizonia and never been an issue so far.

Cheers Steve

 

[Chris_Robb]

Very similar set up to you Andrew. Boat in Cleo. Explored and set up the paperwork during lockdown if ever needed it, but operated without UTL around Ionian, corfu to Trizonia and never been an issue so far.

Cheers Steve

Steve, I presume you got hold of a Transit Log, unlimited or Ltd?

All transit logs were registered on computer.Until they have you in front of them and call up the records, nothing will come to light.
Let me know what type you have, and work out if any action required. We know, at the CA, a senior customs officer, at Preveza, who is ultra good. He has been good to talk issues overwith if we need him.

Worth just checking this out. Just in case.

 

[Saltydog461]

Hi Chris, no in the end we decided didn't need it. So left it at that.

All good so far.

 

[Chris_Robb]

The aim now is to get the Minister of shipping to remove the requirement for the UTL to be issued to Vat paid yachts. The Ministry of shipping has been very compliant over the years and that will then avoid having to get co-operation from the AADE which is a joke (bit like HMRC) The undersecretary seems to like the idea.... This should benefit all the other 3rd Country Vat paid yachts ( mainly from the old colonies) who have got very fed up - to the extent that there are few USA vessels around.
Fingers crossed that this is actioned.