Further anchor developments

[Neeves]

I like to see innovation and vision - much of marine technology improvements are in electronics - well outside my comfort zone. I can relate to deck gear and anchors.

Here is another development to get your teeth into.

On the other hand - if you want to support efforts in Ukraine - you can help keep industry ticking over and loaves of bread on the shelf of a few Ukrainians by adding Viking to your shopping list.

Viking Anchors Set to Release the Odin, Revolutionary HT Steel Plow An

Jonathan

 

[Pete7]

Interesting, but if it landed upside down on hard sand would it remain upside down?

I believe you like the Viking's earlier model, would you like to test this new one for the team?

Pete

 

[NormanS]

I opened the link, and was amused/interested/astonished/horrified to see that the anchor is attached to its chain with a manky old rusty shackle.

 

[Neeves]

Interesting, but if it landed upside down on hard sand would it remain upside down?

I believe you like the Viking's earlier model, would you like to test this new one for the team?

Pete

I am keen on the original Viking - it works (see the Panope spreadsheet results), it shows imagination (uses a novel material) and its light (but does not fit on our and some other bow rollers)

I don't know its self righting ability - though

The usual problem with anchors is that in soft seabeds the shank or the roll bar sinks into the soft substrate and then the righting ability disappears - this is believed to be the reason most anchors did not perform well in the Fortress Chesapeake tests. I suspect, just by looking at it, that hard seabeds might be quite acceptable but soft - the jury has not had chance to see the evidence.

Given the chance I'd like to try it.

Spotting the manky shackles - snap. It does make you wonder.... when I test anchors I also use manky shackles - I keep the good ones for ourselves, but then I don't make money from anchors (only writing about them) and I pay for my own kit.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I opened the link, and was amused/interested/astonished/horrified to see that the anchor is attached to its chain with a manky old rusty shackle.

I have a 25l drum that contains the kit I need for testing.

I have 6mm HT and 8mm G30 chain. I have 3/8th" 10t or 12 t shackles. I try to test 15kg anchors - which if they pass the mustard have a holding capacity of 2t (plus or minus). I have a 2t winch - which is just big enough.

In another drum I have a load cell and meter (read out of tension).

I use this infrequently - as I will only be testing a new design or maybe a repeat test or a test in a different seabed.


Our anchor chain is used frequently. It is composed of 6mm HT chain with an Omega link. The link accepts a 3/8th" 10t or 12t shackle. Everything is galvanised

Because our anchor rode is used frequently, at least weekly, often daily, it has no rust - in fact the chain is polished - it looks like black stainless - but in terms of this thread the shackle has lost the paint on the shackle pin but is effectively bare metal - abrasion has worn of the gal and any signs of corrosion (and all the paint on the pin went long ago). The shackle pins tend to grow a film of rust.

My test rig is a bit different. It is definitely used infrequently, it exhibits surface corrosion, its brown. It does not enjoy a good polish.

I have some unused shackles 3/8th" but with a break load of min 6t, all the paint on the pins is intact.


I take note, if you are selling anchors - better a spiffy low strength shackle with all the paint intact than a stronger less well used shackle with a film of rust.

Its a good thing I don't sell anchors - looks count. No wonder some people buy stainless anchors, chain and shackles. Be not impressed by performance or an anchor - check the shackles.



I bet after overwintering in the UK many yachts are unused and all the rode is covered with a film of rust.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

I have a 25l drum that contains the kit I need for testing.

I have 6mm HT and 8mm G30 chain. I have 3/8th" 10t or 12 t shackles. I try to test 15kg anchors - which if they pass the mustard have a holding capacity of 2t (plus or minus). I have a 2t winch - which is just big enough.

In another drum I have a load cell and meter (read out of tension).

I use this infrequently - as I will only be testing a new design or maybe a repeat test or a test in a different seabed.


Our anchor chain is used frequently. It is composed of 6mm HT chain with an Omega link. The link accepts a 3/8th" 10t or 12t shackle. Everything is galvanised

Because our anchor rode is used frequently, at least weekly, often daily, it has no rust - in fact the chain is polished - it looks like black stainless - but in terms of this thread the shackle has lost the paint on the shackle pin but is effectively bare metal - abrasion has worn of the gal and any signs of corrosion (and all the paint on the pin went long ago). The shackle pins tend to grow a film of rust.

My test rig is a bit different. It is definitely used infrequently, it exhibits surface corrosion, its brown. It does not enjoy a good polish.

I have some unused shackles 3/8th" but with a break load of min 6t, all the paint on the pins is intact.


I take note, if you are selling anchors - better a spiffy low strength shackle with all the paint intact than a stronger less well used shackle with a film of rust.

Its a good thing I don't sell anchors - looks count. No wonder some people buy stainless anchors, chain and shackles. Be not impressed by performance or an anchor - check the shackles.



I bet after overwintering in the UK many yachts are unused and all the rode is covered with a film of rust.

Jonathan

I'm not sure what you're driving at in defence of an anchor sales pitch showing a manky old rusty shackle.
If I was considering spending my hard earned on another anchor, which I'm not, I would expect at the very least, some attention to detail.
The anchor's a funny shaped thing anyway, and looks as if only an extended bow roller could accommodate it for stowing. But as I say, I'm not in the market, so it's of little interest to me.

 

[Neeves]

I'm not sure what you're driving at in defence of an anchor sales pitch showing a manky old rusty shackle.
If I was considering spending my hard earned on another anchor, which I'm not, I would expect at the very least, some attention to detail.
The anchor's a funny shaped thing anyway, and looks as if only an extended bow roller could accommodate it for stowing. But as I say, I'm not in the market, so it's of little interest to me.

You and 170 other people read the thread - presumably one or two found it of interest.

I'm not defending an anchor test - I wish all anchor makers would do the same tests. Maybe you can offer a link to holding capacity testing of Lewmar's Epsilon and their Fortress clone or even the Mantus M1,

Most innovation is questioned - In its day Bruce was considered a 'funny shaped thing' and Fortress rejected from being made of aluminium. We all wondered at Rocna's roll bar (but excused once we knew it was Peter Bruce' design) Its well before my time but I suspect CQR had similar comments made. What is interesting is that these 'funny shaped things' (a bit like Saildrives and carbon fibre) are now mainstream (even some people cruising use carbon fibre, in their sails).

Now I have this sneaking suspicion that the videos to which you refer were not focussed at marketing but a record of how the anchor performed to form a basis of analysis for the manufacturer.

When I developed the Boomerang and my Bridle Plate - I took images for record purposes (and have used them here). I did not polish anything I wanted evidence of 'real life'

Showing anchors tarted up with new chain and red ribbons to entice the buyer - is not my scene and maybe not that of Viking. But if you and others prefer staged pictures I am sure it can be arranged (but it will not be real life).

On a more realistic note staging a holding capacity test is expensive and time consuming. The critical element is the hold developed, not the polish on the anchor nor the paint on the shackle pin.

Maybe Crosby should send them a gross of shackles so that they can use a new shackle every time they test. I am sure the holding capacity will be enhanced.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

The reason that I said the anchor was a funny shape is in relation to it's ability (or not) to stow on a normal bow roller. Those of use who anchor a lot want an anchor which can easily come up and rest in the bow roller, ready for its next deployment.
I'm intrigued at your reference to "videos to which you refer........" Well, I didn't refer to any video, as I haven't seen any related video. Your febrile imagination is running away with you.
Anyway, I think you are protesting too much. All I pointed out was the unimportant fact that the anchor was shown connected with a manky looking shackle. That statement of fact seems to have fairly ruffled your feathers.. Maybe there's a hidden agenda here?

 

[Neeves]

The reason that I said the anchor was a funny shape is in relation to it's ability (or not) to stow on a normal bow roller. Those of use who anchor a lot want an anchor which can easily come up and rest in the bow roller, ready for its next deployment.
I'm intrigued at your reference to "videos to which you refer........" Well, I didn't refer to any video, as I haven't seen any related video. Your febrile imagination is running away with you.
Anyway, I think you are protesting too much. All I pointed out was the unimportant fact that the anchor was shown connected with a manky looking shackle. That statement of fact seems to have fairly ruffled your feathers.. Maybe there's a hidden agenda here?

Of course there is a hidden agenda, well diagnosed.

For anchoring - Use Crosby shackles - they are the best.

I've been waiting for way to sneak the promotion into a thread without being accused of a fudicary interest.

 

[Bouba]

The reason that I said the anchor was a funny shape is in relation to it's ability (or not) to stow on a normal bow roller. Those of use who anchor a lot want an anchor which can easily come up and rest in the bow roller, ready for its next deployment.
I'm intrigued at your reference to "videos to which you refer........" Well, I didn't refer to any video, as I haven't seen any related video. Your febrile imagination is running away with you.
Anyway, I think you are protesting too much. All I pointed out was the unimportant fact that the anchor was shown connected with a manky looking shackle. That statement of fact seems to have fairly ruffled your feathers.. Maybe there's a hidden agenda here?

I think it might come up the right way and rest easy on the roller...the clue is that there is no banana or swivel

 

[Neeves]

Norman, I think you exaggerate the problem.

People have these anchors, sailing yachts, on their bow rollers + Fortress and others - without issue.

I could post more pictures (but I have not quite got to grips with posting pics on the updated website).


Strangely, or not so strange, people are more interested in the performance of the anchor and if they are impressed many overcome the issues of fitting the anchor on their bow roller.

Jonathan

 

[thinwater]

Oh, we're off on an endless string of criticisms before we actually know anything. Just like an anchor thread. The shackle is no where near manky, it has only the beginnings of galv. failure. Zoom in. And would you rather see an honest photo by a company that is testing lots of changes, than a prettied up photo of a stainless anchor that does not actually work? I've seen lots of those. Hell, it's a war zone.

I don't know if it works. I've seen ideas that seemed promising fail, and weird designs that turned out to be pretty smart.

It will not stay on its back be cause of the high, arched shank. Spade does the same thing. Also, the wings will function something like the wings on The M1 and original Viking, rolling it over as soon as you start to pull. They will also help with rotation with wind shifts. As for fitting the roller, if it works you modify the roller. Looks OKish to me. Many anchors don't fit great. I would hate to constrain anchor development by how it fits on a traditional roller. That could really stifle things. Holding and versatility come first.

 

[Laser310]

I haven't looked at the Viking web site before.

they say don't oversize.

But the displacement vs length numbers on their recommendation table are for pretty heavy boats

For Example, displacement of an X-40, according to the brochure, is 7500kg.., so let's say 10,000 in full cruising mode with full tanks and all cruising supplies.

So, If I go by length, and pick the conservative choice for a 40ft boat (their 40-50ft anchor, rather than the 30-40ft anchor), I am at recommended displacement of19,000kg - almost double.., so presumably "oversized"

I'm guessing most people would say go by the displacement rather than length.

But.., what is the risk of over-sizing? Why are they so adamant about not doing it?

These are pretty light anchors to begin with..

 

[KompetentKrew]

they say don't oversize.

But the displacement vs length numbers on their recommendation table are for pretty heavy boats

For Example, displacement of an X-40, according to the brochure, is 7500kg.., so let's say 10,000 in full cruising mode with full tanks and all cruising supplies.

So, If I go by length, and pick the conservative choice for a 40ft boat (their 40-50ft anchor, rather than the 30-40ft anchor), I am at recommended displacement of19,000kg - almost double.., so presumably "oversized"

Having been though this with them, that is exactly what they say you shouldn't do - the owner is adamant that a 10 is the right size for a 40' boat.

IMO Viking have terrible marketing, because my reaction was the exact same as yours, and I think it's what most people will do. I think people would be much more inclined to trust them if they made a size 12.5 - then the owner of a 40' boat could buy with confidence that they're right in the middle of its 35' - 45' range.

I ended up trusting them (well, trusting @Neeves really) and getting a 10 for my 40' boat. I'm not going to engage with the anchor debate except to say that, in any case, any NG anchor will have twice as much holding as the Bruce I had before and that held me no bother in a very good gale (although it depends on the holding of course - on other occasions it was not so good, and did not seem to ever reset itself).

 

[Laser310]

Having been though this with them,

Did you ever learn what they believe is so bad about oversizing?

 

[LittleSister]

Did you ever learn what they believe is so bad about oversizing?

Neeves has often explained, fairly convincingly to my mind (and if I understand correctly), that you won't be able to dig an oversized anchor in to full depth. Better a smaller lighter anchor fully dug in than an oversized one half dug in.

 

[Bouba]

Neeves has often explained, fairly convincingly to my mind (and if I understand correctly), that you won't be able to dig an oversized anchor in to full depth. Better a smaller lighter anchor fully dug in than an oversized one half dug in.

Then surely the anchor size should reflect the engine size...not the boat length

 

[KompetentKrew]

Did you ever learn what they believe is so bad about oversizing?

I was going to leave this to @Neeves.

I have the impression that weight is really irrelevant to anchor holding - I would guess it's about surface area providing resistance to mud or sand? And anchor design is about maximising this and the ability to dig in?

Some mention of "tripping" vs fouling was made by Viking, but I didn't generally find them very helpful or clear.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Neeves has often explained, fairly convincingly to my mind (and if I understand correctly), that you won't be able to dig an oversized anchor in to full depth. Better a smaller lighter anchor fully dug in than an oversized one half dug in.

Then surely the anchor size should reflect the engine size...not the boat length

Surely that would result in an anchor that's great until it loses holding in a gust, and then it won't reset and then in a gale you're knackered?

I'd guess the ideal anchor in severe gales is one that resets quickly?

 

[Bouba]

Surely that would result in an anchor that's great until it loses holding in a gust, and then it won't reset and then in a gale you're knackered?

I'd guess the ideal anchor in severe gales is one that resets quickly?

That’s a good point….however it begs the question…if only an undersized anchor can reset…then it’s not much good at resetting. Surely any anchor would reset better the littler it is….setting and size must be inversely related…but size and holding must also be related