Furling Main

[boatmike]

Interesting reading the Marmite opinions here as always. Frankly it is horses for courses. Most systems with a good sail cut specifically for the purpose work very well. Advantages are ease of reefing often not requiring you to leave the cockpit which can mean you have confidence to carry more sail in marginal conditions. A flat cut sail can sometimes allow beating harder to wind but this depends on several factors and can often not be so. Disadvantages are that downwind performance can be compromised due to the flatter cut sail and certainly if something does jam its a PITA so its not very common to see them on racing boats or ocean cruising boats where a jammed sail could be a real danger. That's probably an explanation for the popularity of in boom for larger boats. Don't forget that this class of boat is very seldom short handed where many of us on 25-36ft boats often are. For inshore and offshore work cruising (which is most of us I think) they are brilliant and the suggestion that they will reduce the value of a boat is ridiculous.

 

[doug748]

...... For inshore and offshore work cruising (which is most of us I think) they are brilliant and the suggestion that they will reduce the value of a boat is ridiculous.

Depends on the boat.
To use dunedin's example putting one of these masts on an X Yacht is almost certainly doing your money; and few might want a Westerly 29 in less than racing trim. On the other tack, if the OP is looking at Sealords then the performance hit is probably not at the front of his mind - or any other prospective buyers.

 

[NormanS]

I

I am not talking about old fashioned boom reefing systems. Modern boom reefing uses fully battened sails, has lots of the advantages of slab reefing and has far better sail shape than in mast. The two guys I have met that have changed masts from in mast reefing and gone for in boom reefing says there is a big performance advantage with the in boom reefing. In booming reefing here in the Caribbean, particularly on new American boats is very popular in the 40-50 ft range.

Hmm, I notice that you don't attempt to address either of the two points which I raised. However, I am perfectly willing to accept that, mainly as a result of smaller available sail area available, in mast will always have a poorer performance than a sail with a full roach. For racing therefore, in mast is not indicated. For the average, often short handed cruiser, where out and out sailing performance is less vital, in mast has some major advantages. In common with lots of things, it's horses for courses.

 

[geem]

Hmm, I notice that you don't attempt to address either of the two points which I raised. However, I am perfectly willing to accept that, mainly as a result of smaller available sail area available, in mast will always have a poorer performance than a sail with a full roach. For racing therefore, in mast is not indicated. For the average, often short handed cruiser, where out and out sailing performance is less vital, in mast has some major advantages. In common with lots of things, it's horses for courses.

I guess its horse for courses but I never understand why boat less than 40ft have in mast reefing. Sail areas are small. Our own boat is 44ft with slab reefing. We don't even have reefing from the cockpit but I wouldn't dream of changing our very simple system of going to the mast to reef. We do have the advantage of flush decks, high guardwires and big granny bars. It never crosses my mind that going on deck to reef is an inconvenience. We sail husband and wife and both of us are happy to put a reef in when needed. Its very simple and quick to do and feels very safe on our boat. I could imagine as I get older, if we needed to change our mast we would consider inboom reefing. Although you can retrofit in boom reefing by just changing the boom

 

[Poignard]

There seems to a marked reluctance among some present-day yachtsmen to go on deck.

What happens when something goes wrong in bad weatherwith in-mast furlers, single-line reefing, stack packs and other gadgetry?

Not only do you have to go on deck, where unfamiliarity makes you ill at ease, you also have to sort out something more complex than simple traditional slab-reefing and a halyard.

If I feared going on deck in bad weather, I would know it was time to give up sailing and buy a motor boat.

 

[pvb]

There seems to a marked reluctance among some present-day yachtsmen to go on deck.

What happens when something goes wrong in bad weatherwith in-mast furlers, single-line reefing, stack packs and other gadgetry?

Not only do you have to go on deck, where unfamiliarity makes you ill at ease, you also have to sort out something more complex than simple traditional slab-reefing and a halyard.

If I feared going on deck in bad weather, I would know it was time to give up sailing and buy a motor boat.

That's a rather extreme view. In-mast furling introduces an element of convenience. And, it could be argued that it also introduces an element of safety, as it minimises the need to go on deck, and encourages sailors to reef earlier. Using your logic, none of us would have plotters, autopilots, anchor windlasses, electric lights, etc.

 

[Poignard]

That's a rather extreme view. In-mast furling introduces an element of convenience. And, it could be argued that it also introduces an element of safety, as it minimises the need to go on deck, and encourages sailors to reef earlier. Using your logic, none of us would have plotters, autopilots, anchor windlasses, electric lights, etc.

No, that isn't what I'm saying.

By all means have whatever conveniences you like (I have my share) but if it gets to the stage where if they fail you are in a jam, then I think you have made yourself uneccessarily vulnerable.

I have met yachtsmen who regard leaving the cockpit in anything but fine weather as a dangerous activity.

 

[geem]

That's a rather extreme view. In-mast furling introduces an element of convenience. And, it could be argued that it also introduces an element of safety, as it minimises the need to go on deck, and encourages sailors to reef earlier. Using your logic, none of us would have plotters, autopilots, anchor windlasses, electric lights, etc.
[/QUOTE]
I dont see how having inmast reefing or not relates to plotters, autopilots, etc, other than it seems that you think inmast reefing is an improvement over slab reefing and a natural progression. I would beg to differ. No performance minded sailor would consider inmast reefing. Its fitted to many low performance boats. A certain breed of sailor chooses inmast over slab or in boom. As time progresses you will see less and less in mast reefing new boats. In boom will become the norm

 

[jordanbasset]

The one cast iron requirement for when we bought our current boat by my wife was that it has in-mast furling. Our boat is only 33 foot long but the in-mast furling is very easy to use and never had a jam on our current boat. We really are not interested in getting every half knot out of the boat, ease of use it much more useful. Although I will say that with in-mast furling we tend to reduce sail and by not so much a lot later than we did with conventional reefing and let it out a lot earlier, so I doubt in the big scheme of things the performance aspect is not so great
But if we all liked the same things it would be a very boring world

 

[E-mac]

The one cast iron requirement for when we bought our current boat by my wife was that it has in-mast furling. Our boat is only 33 foot long but the in-mast furling is very easy to use and never had a jam on our current boat. We really are not interested in getting every half knot out of the boat, ease of use it much more useful. Although I will say that with in-mast furling we tend to reduce sail and by not so much a lot later than we did with conventional reefing and let it out a lot earlier, so I doubt in the big scheme of things the performance aspect is not so great
But if we all liked the same things it would be a very boring world

+1

 

[RJJ]

Somehow I manage to do my slab reefing from the cockpit either via telekinesis, or because there's a rope from the tack/reefing point via the gooseneck to the cockpit.

It does mean you need a few ropes and a few jammers, 2 per reef, vs 1 or two for the furling gear.

 

[rotrax]

I dont see how having inmast reefing or not relates to plotters, autopilots, etc, other than it seems that you think inmast reefing is an improvement over slab reefing and a natural progression. I would beg to differ. No performance minded sailor would consider inmast reefing. Its fitted to many low performance boats. A certain breed of sailor chooses inmast over slab or in boom. As time progresses you will see less and less in mast reefing new boats. In boom will become the norm

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I suspect, rather than your premise, that most sailors who end up with in mast furling have it because the boat they purchased was so equipped.

My heavy motorsailer has in mast. It sails like a brick in anything other than ideal conditions. BUT - it motorsails brilliantly, frugal on fuel, sails flatter and goes fast.

Compared to our previous aft cockpit boat the passage speed increased by 1.75 kts.

And, being an Island Packet, it is SO good alongside or on the hook.

I agree that in - boom furling is the future.

 

[BrianH]

I am not talking about old fashioned boom reefing systems. Modern boom reefing uses fully battened sails, has lots of the advantages of slab reefing and has far better sail shape than in mast. The two guys I have met that have changed masts from in mast reefing and gone for in boom reefing says there is a big performance advantage with the in boom reefing. In booming reefing here in the Caribbean, particularly on new American boats is very popular in the 40-50 ft range.

I fitted Profurl in-boom mainsail reefing on my 31' boat and with it a new, fully-battened mainsail. I just couldn't trust that in-mast would never jam and with the instant bora gales we regularly experienced in the northern Adriatic, wasn't prepared to chance being single-handed in a rapidly rising gale and a jammed main.

I noticed that in my Italian marina since my 2009 installation, most new mainsail furling systems were in-boom.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The only issues I have encountered with in-mast furling is not when the sail is "baggy" as such, problems happen when the sail starts to lose its 'stiffness' - this is usually accompanied with increased draft due to stretch, but it's the sail stiffness that actually causes the problems I have encountered.

Once the sail starts to lose its stiffness it becomes possible for an inner roll to be picked up by the exiting sail edge and pulled out through the slot which then jams the furling system. It was so extreme on one charter boat I used in 2009 that we had to go up the mast and poke the fold back into the slot with a wooden spoon to free it. This problem recurred throughout the holiday - the solution in the end was to only unfurl on a port-tack so the wind forced the exiting sail edge to close the mast slot, this removed the gap and prevented rolls still inside the mast from being picked up and drawn out.

A realtively new sail where the material is still stiff is no problem at all and very reliable. I've spent 9 seasons with roller furling on my boat and it has never failed. I can also furl and unfurl without changing course. Roller reefing also allows you an almost infinite choice of sail area and balance between main and genoa. Roller furling mains do not have the same performance as slab reefed sails, but I don't race and therefore accept the trade-off.

My advice is, roller furling is very relaiable and very easy to use short-handed but very dependent on sail condition - worn out, very pliable sails lead to problems.

I've also sailed boats with lazy-jacks and single-line reefing and I honestly find them a bit of a pain. Battons stuck under the lazy-jacks, sail and reefing lines thrashing around which can get wrapped round the lazy-jacks or tied in knots - which you then have to untangle while balanced on the cabin roof. Perhaps it wasn't set up correctly but it was not my cup of tea and I would take a roller reefing main over slab unless there was something outstanding about the boat in question.

PS: If it were available I'd go for in-boom furling.

 

[jwilson]

There is no doubt that in-boom reefing is better than in-mast, in almost every way, but in-mast has many advantages for easy cruising over slab reefing. I've done several thousand miles on a boat with in-mast, and appreciated it when on my own in the cockpit at night. With slab I COULD have reefed or unreefed on my own, but for safety I'd probably have had to wake someone up, and even if I didn't the noise on deck would probably have woken them anyway.

What Westerly? What sort of sailing do you intend. There is no doubt that even vertical batten in-masts are slightly inferior performance to a good battened sail, unbattened in-masts poorer still. But if the convenience is wanted, have one.

 

[geem]

There is no doubt that in-boom reefing is better than in-mast, in almost every way, but in-mast has many advantages for easy cruising over slab reefing. I've done several thousand miles on a boat with in-mast, and appreciated it when on my own in the cockpit at night. With slab I COULD have reefed or unreefed on my own, but for safety I'd probably have had to wake someone up, and even if I didn't the noise on deck would probably have woken them anyway.

What Westerly? What sort of sailing do you intend. There is no doubt that even vertical batten in-masts are slightly inferior performance to a good battened sail, unbattened in-masts poorer still. But if the convenience is wanted, have one.

I understand why people are reluctant to go on deck at night to put a reef in. When you look at boat designs with raised decks that are cluttered, with no consideration for actually standing on it in a bumpy sea I fully sympathise. Designers have pushed internal volumes to bursting point at the sacrifice of boats that are good to sail. You dont see modern production boats with granny bars any more or single steering wheels. Its all about never getting out of the cockpit. I guess its what lots of people want these days so I must be old fashioned. I almost never see a modern boat I lust after. If I do, its a one off custom job and never a production boat

 

[roaringgirl]

I crossed the atlantic with the in-mast furlers jammed on the mizzen AND the main (someone else's boat). My boat has a fully battened main with cars on a track and single-line reefing. I can chuck in a reef on my own in about 2 mins without leaving the cockpit, if someone offered me a swap for in-mast reefing for free, I wouldn't take it.

 

[dunedin]

As an aside, and reflecting on some different views on another thread, I wonder if there is any correlation between views on:
(A) fully battened mains vs in mast furler; and
(B) previously sailed or indeed raced dinghies vs straight into yachts.
Certainly I used to enjoy the sensation of a dinghy when the mainsail got powered up and you could feel the roach of the mainsail powering the boat closer to the wind. Similarly going to windward we pull the traveller up (in lighter winds) and when get the leech curve on main and jib in their sweet spot can again feel the boat climbing fast to windward. I rarely ever look at a compasss under sail, but regularly looking up at rig and sail set.

 

[geem]

As an aside, and reflecting on some different views on another thread, I wonder if there is any correlation between views on:
(A) fully battened mains vs in mast furler; and
(B) previously sailed or indeed raced dinghies vs straight into yachts.
Certainly I used to enjoy the sensation of a dinghy when the mainsail got powered up and you could feel the roach of the mainsail powering the boat closer to the wind. Similarly going to windward we pull the traveller up (in lighter winds) and when get the leech curve on main and jib in their sweet spot can again feel the boat climbing fast to windward. I rarely ever look at a compasss under sail, but regularly looking up at rig and sail set.

I came from dinghy sailing/racing a very long time ago. We still dabble in racing here in the Caribbean but on other boats. Our last racing experience was on a Cariacou sloop in Antigua Classics last year. Stripped out wooden boats with long keels internal ballast and huge sail area. They go surprisingly well, but not to windward!
I like nothing better than to be tweaking sails on every passage. Setting the sails so they pull efficiently isn't just for racing. Why would you sail with a flapping genoa because you cant be bothered to adjust the genoa car or adjust the vang to get the twist in the sail right so the telltales are flying properly. We never use the compass when sailing. Its all about sailing tp the wind angle once we have sails set correctly. I guess lots of people are not like us. We see yachts motoring down wind in 15/20 kts with no sail set. I guess not everybody who has a yacht loves sailing.

 

[jwilson]

I reckon I sail pretty efficiently. I sailed and raced dinghies for many years and have done a fair bit of ocean racing.

On a bigger boat that buyers are probably never going to race seriously in-mast is almost standard these days and has advantages. Apart from anything else, it avoids tiptoeing or having to stand on mast steps to zip up the top of a stackpack cover. Even on my present 35 ft boat, that job on tiptoe on the coachroof is probably the most dangerous job on board, because I'm quite short.

I suspect some posting here have never met modern in-boom setups - a world away from old roller reefing booms. You can have fully battened mains with lots of roach, almost any degree of reef, not just 2 or 3 fixed slabs, and once the sail is rolled up you pull one string and the slot in the top of the boom is covered to completely protect the sail. And if the mechanism fails you can still lower the sail and tie it down like people did before stackpacks. Unfortunately it's not often offered as an "option" with new boats as the systems are at present much more expensive than in-mast or slab reefing and a stackpack.