Furling headsail to racing luff

[jonjo]

This is just a theoretical question because I have not bought the yacht yet.

But if I did purchase a 35 ft yacht with view to both cruising and occasional (but serious) racing, how much effort is involved when swapping the headsail gear from a furling drum to a racing luff grove?

Have any furling products been designed with such dual mode use in mind?


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[bedouin]

Many furling systems claim to allow you to do this. On some the furling drum comes off and others simply have a groove in the drum through which the luff of the sail feeds.

In either case I think it would be necessary to have the sail made to fit the peculiarities of the system

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[boatless]

And if you have an underdeck drum you have the best of both. This depends on the boat though.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[jonjo]

Thanks.

After seeing your reply I looked at the Seldom/Furlex web page and they do indeed have a removable drum. No real details but the racing-mode photo looks good.

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[jonjo]

> depends on the boat though

No decision yet, I am looking for a fast English Channel passage maker that would also be suitable for entering into some of the home waters double-handled passage races.

The new Bavaria Match 35 looks like value for money but I have been told the design is more oriented towards winning round the cans races.

Do you race offshore JOG/RORC?

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[boatless]

Used to be 'out there' every weekend. Got married, had children. Getting unmarried, so doing a bit more now, but not enough...

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[jonjo]

> Used to be 'out there' every weekend.

Can I pick your brains?

A Bavaria agent told me he would rather sail to the Azores in a Bavaria 36 than a Match 35. This statement has got me puzzled because the vital stats of the Match look better for handling bad offshore conditions.

The ballast ratio and AVS of the Match are 5% higher, the keel is about 8" deeper, the rudder is bigger, beam/length is < 33% and the bow finer.

Maybe I am getting too focused on numbers and have missed something. It has been 14 years since I did in a Jog race.

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[boatless]

Well, I suppose that if you took a sample of contemporary 'quick' boats, you might get a similar spread of opinions on 'seakindliness' as you might if you tried the fin versus long keel debate?

So, if the Match has a deeper C of G, (by way of a deeper keel, lighter hull and rig) it's likely that it's pitching will be increased because the lower C of G will have more leverage when the whole boat tries to stop at a wave. So it will be less 'comfortable'. Look at the quotes from the Transat chappies "the boat is strong enough, it's the crew that can't take it" seems to sum it up. Personally I'd take the pain every time.

However, in the same way as the fin/long keel debate, do you want to be more comfortable for longer? 'Cause you'll certainly be taking longer to get there on the slower boat!

On the other hand, the agent might be less keen on sailing a Match 35 to the Azores if his commission paid for less beer.

btw, have you looked at X-Yachts <A target="_blank" HREF=http://X-Yachts.com>http://X-Yachts.com</A>? If I weren't intent on building my own design, that's where my money would be going! Don't get me wrong, the Match 35 looks to be a pretty good boat, just a thought..

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[Oldhand]

As I understand it, all current Harken systems are built with a removable drum, leaving you with a very nice twin groove alloy headfiol. However, you can't easily remove the top swivel unit and the luff length of racing headsails must take the length of the top swivel unit into account. I have used Harken furlers since 1991 and can highly recommend them.

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[racingron]

How did the agent qualify this statement? I've never sailed the match but have been out in a 36 (one of the Fairview charter boats I was skippering on corporate) in 30 knots gusting 40 on the Solent. Any agent worth his salt should be able to give you better information than that type of throw away remark.

I would be very loath to sail a 36 to the Azores, after broaching in those conditions on a beam reach with three reefs in and a scrap of unfurled headsail - I would have expected more.

If you're serious about double handing I would be more inclined toward a boat with a bowsprit - a second hand J109 or J105 is fair sturdier and easier to handle (gybes are infinately easier with a sprit).

The Match range are (to my knowledge) largely unproven. There was one in Scotland this weekend for the Scottish series which was going quite well but I didn't get to have a close look as she was moored on a buoy away from the dock - could have been a 38.
There was also one racing in last years winter series which I don't think did very well.

You get what you pay for....

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[jonjo]

Re: Bavaria Match 35

> How did the agent qualify this statement?

A cynic would observe that the agent had a surplus Bav 36 in the compound to sell and commission revenue for a Match 35 sale was 5 months away at the time.

He quoted recent documented offshore passages made by some Bav 36's including the ARC and also claimed that a 36 with the deep lead keel option is a different boat.

The agent said the Match 35 was well into the racing end of the crusier/racer spectrum. From what I have read the Match series designs are targeted for a good IMS rating and according to another internet site this explains the absence of a keel bulb. Apparently IMS penalizes a bulb, I’m rambling at here… I suppose what I am saying is that the Match has been designed for a rule and not my objective of fast passage making plus occasional offshore competitive race.

The first production Match 35 has only just gone down the production line so I will have to wait for the magazine reviews, apparently the journo's are flocking down to the Bavaria agent in the Balearics as I write this. Yachts & Yachting are promising an early July write up on the Match 35.

I understand there are already 100+ back orders but even so Bavaria is quoting a September delivery on the latest Match 35 orders.

> (gybes are infinitely easier with a sprit).

I need to better understand this comment. The inference is that a double handed crew looking for downwind performance will strongly favour using an asymmetric?

Anyhow if I am not interested in round-the-cans racing will gybing be a common event?

> The Match range are (to my knowledge) largely unproven.

The first seriously campaigned Match 38 is trouncing its production peers in Med based IRC and IMS events. However such fair-weather fully-crewed performance does not tell me much about short handed windward handling in force 6 channel chop.

http://eng.bavaria-racing.com/

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[ceeagr]

Re: Bavaria Match 35

I was in a similar position to you a year ago looking for something to do RORC racing and a bit of cruising with some round the cans. I previously owned a Bavaria 40 Ocean which I found to be fine in a blow (certainly out in good 8's a couple of times) but was pig slow when the wind drops (and it hasn't been the windy in the RORC stuff this year.

I ended up getting a J109 "Jumunu" which was delivered in March so we're just learning to get the best out of her but we've had one thrird place already. The A sail helps us a lot when RORCing because we can keep the size of the watch down to a minimum.

Another boat which has been doing very well this year double handed is the HOD35.

Feel free to drop me a line if i cna be of any further help. (If i've been of help at all)

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[racingron]

Re: Bavaria Match 35

Hi Jonjo,

Performance - I see your point about the med racing (I stand corrected) however I am generally very suspicious of boats which do well in IMS. IMS is an odd rule which promotes un-seaworthy boats - you basically get credits for go-slower improvements (no lead bulb on keel etc.) - not too sure that it'd be fun in a breezy channel race.

I also stand by my comments on the 36, it would be a nasty boat to take racing. Go for a racer/cruiser or even a cruiser/racer not a cruiser/cruiser.

Gybing - if you're double handing, gybing a kite with a symetrical pole can be a bit of a handful - admittedly with practice it can be done. When it's breezy you need to fly the kite on the sheets, gybe the pole (controlling the topping lift at the same time) and the main. If it goes wrong the kite easily gets wrapped and broaching is common (even with a decent autopilot). Having said that (and I've double handed on the HOD mentioned - Psipsina as well as a J105 which did the Fastnet two up last year) you can have problems with a bowsprit boat as well but I find it far easier on the J's when short handed.
Yes, gybing is not as common offshore, however you'll still have to do it at night when you're tired and there's breeze on - clipping your foredecker onto the jackstays without getting tangled. In a J you don't need to leave the cockpit.

Either way, best of luck.


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[Guest]

Absolutely ...

There are various makes of gear on market with removable drums specifically for this work ....
Talk to Furling gear dealers - they should advise ok ....

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

You would have to show that the drum is non-functional as furling gear is not allowed in serious racing ....

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[bedouin]

How serious do you mean?

RORC certainly allow roller furling and reefing - and most Round the World racers seem to use roller furling gear these days.

Now really serious ratings require you to declare the dimensions of your foil, or restrict you to a maximum dimension.

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[Guest]

I'm certainly not allowed it in my 1/4 ton boat for racing .... so have a twin forestay system fitted instead. Other boats have twin foils etc.

I don't actually follow much other racing and only know the restrictions on my class ..... thats enough to get going on without others !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[boatless]

Funnily enough, you actually get a rating benefit for having a roller. Primarily because the rule treats it as a reefer, even if you only use it as a furler.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[bedouin]

Does that also mean you are forbidden from using a foil as well?

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[Guest]

Racing with furler ....

Definitely no on my cards ..... dont fancy that rolled sail and also the lack of sail low down ..... anyway - as said my class boat is not allowed anything but handed sails to compete ..... so I shall continue to carry enough sails to wrap the boat over and over !!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/