Furling Genoa - Any Point in having a Storm Jib?

[Marmalade]

We too have a heavy weather / storm jib and an inner forestay. Much better than a partially rolled genoa when going to windward. Wouldn't want to be on the foredeck though in the kind of weather that would make me reach for it...

 

[prv]

True. The advantages of having a smaller sail than "standard" with a fractional rig would no doubt be less pronounced than I experience with my masthead rig.

Exactly - that's why I haven't yet got one. It's still a possibility, though, depending on experiences with the new boat.

If I had your 150% masthead genoa it's much more likely I'd have got a strong-wind jib straight away as part of the initial order of new sails.

Pete

 

[Pleiades]

I think furling genoas are a liability in gales let alone, heaven forbid a storm. A hanked on sail of the appropriate weight, size and cut is much superior when it starts to blow. Thats why I like cutter rig - I have a roller yankee which gets put to bed when the wind picks up. The inner forestay then does the work with either the hanked on staysail or if really windy a storm jib.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

 

[PeterR]

On my present boat I have a 130% genoa with luff foam but loath reducing it to more than 100%. Beyond that its not a pretty sight going to windward. Because of this I tend to stick with my 105% jib just about all the time - apart from racing. Its much easier to use when short tacking inshore, does not need furling until about 30 knots apparent and if necesary will take 2 or 3 rolls and retain a decent shape. It has certainly been OK like that to windward with a deep third reef in the main in steady 40knot plus winds. I do have a removeable inner forestay and storm jib but to date have never had to use them. However I would do if caught out going to windward in more than 30 knots true with the 130% on the forestay, changing to the storm jib would be much easier than trying to drop the genoa and change down through the headsails. I gave that up decades ago.

 

[prv]

I like cutter rig - I have a roller yankee which gets put to bed when the wind picks up. The inner forestay then does the work with either the hanked on staysail or if really windy a storm jib.

Sounds great - definitely a very seamanlike rig.

I had something similar on Kindred Spirit, though both sails were on rollers. It was certainly a lot more reassuring to have the jib completely rolled away, with several rolls of sheet on top, and the staysail pulling sweetly - rather than having a bowstring-taut genoa furling line just waiting to give you a barn door on the bow if it slips. Since KS's jib is a wykeham-martin, you can lower it without unrolling, which I did on one occasion when we'd be going to windward against a very strong breeze. In the interests of reducing windage, bow weight, etc, I pulled the bowsprit in and lashed it and the jib down on deck before setting off. Probably added a small fraction of a knot to our upwind speed

Pete

 

[geem]

In my experience and based off discussions with my sailmaker, rolling beyond 1/3 of the sail away, even with foam luff, leaves a poor sail shape. Going to windward in strong winds isn't going to be possible with poor sail shape

 

[mjcoon]

... It does however require a bit of forethought, as having to unfurl the whole genoa to drop it when the wind is already such that you want to roll it away further is difficult.

Hmm, I wonder if anyone has tried arranging to "furl" the leach of a genoa while unfurling the luff? The idea would be to end up with a sausage that could be dropped. Maybe it would require some sort of swivel with ratchet at the clew which would be difficult to control, especially if it is out of reach when the sail is furled...

Mike.

 

[John.edwards]

Agreed (gosh, what an agreeable post) . . .

I have often sailed a Sigma33 with just such an arrangement and have been ab el to make progress to windward in F7-8 comfortably with half of that furled away. It does however require a bit of forethought, as having to unfurl the whole genoa to drop it when the wind is already such that you want to roll it away further is difficult.

- W

agreed even more. I sailed in Gibraltar on a Jeanneau 36i with a removable inner forestay. It was filed on the side deck when not in use, and when moved to the eye on the foredeck the storm jib was hanked on. although a bit of a struggle in 45 knots (during yachtmaster training) it allowed us to point up as we beat toward Sotogrande. sail kept great shape

 

[prv]

Hmm, I wonder if anyone has tried arranging to "furl" the leach of a genoa while unfurling the luff?

I've done it by hand when untangling a halyard snarl-up, which meant we had to drop the rolled-up genoa without turning the foil. Passed the leach roll round and round the foil, transferring sail from foil to roll. It wasn't especially windy (wasn't flat calm either) - I wouldn't want to try the same thing as a precursor to setting a heavy-weather sail!

Pete

 

[mjcoon]

I've done it by hand when untangling a halyard snarl-up, which meant we had to drop the rolled-up genoa without turning the foil. Passed the leach roll round and round the foil, transferring sail from foil to roll. It wasn't especially windy (wasn't flat calm either) - I wouldn't want to try the same thing as a precursor to setting a heavy-weather sail!

Pete

Thanks for that. Must have been a smallish yacht; I'm sure that on ordinary mid-30ft yachts I've been on had the rolled-up clew out of reach up the forestay.

I take the point about light wind, too - with no sheets to rely on if you accidently let go, it's gone!

Mike.

 

[sailorgirl]

The inner forestay then does the work with either the hanked on staysail or if really windy a storm jib.
Robin
Pleiades of Birdham
MXWQ5

+1 - though we hank on a yankee (our furling sailing is a deck sweeping genoa) or a storm jib.

We've used our storm jib precisely twice since we bought it in 2004 - once to beat out of Alderney harbour into a horrid NE'ly - but I'm glad its in the sail wardrobe.

 

[johnalison]

All this talk about cutter rigs and so on is all very well but most of us are stuck with the boat we've got and the question is about what sail or sails we should carry for coastal or moderate offshore work. I still agree with those who have arranged to cope with winds in the F6-7 range but not for ideal performance going to windward offshore in a full gale.

 

[prv]

Thanks for that. Must have been a smallish yacht;

Good point. Yes, it was a Leisure 23

Pete

 

[lotusman]

On my previous boat, 33’ Albin Nova similar to Sigma 33, I had a storm jib that zip fastened over the furled jib. Excellent shape, made progress to windward in F7+ possible. Tacking the jib was easy, about 6 inches adjustment from one sheet to the other. Bright orange, made of canvas (kinder to stitching than synthetic). Easier than one would expect to hoist and drop with two on board. Halliard led to cockpit. Tack attached to strop about a metre long to clear waves and improve visibility as already commented. Next to impossible to hoist singlehanded unless conditions too benign to require its use. Used perhaps twice a year, average boat use 5000 miles/year. Unfortunately no pictures.

Current boat , HR38, has detachable inner forestay which attaches a metre and a half aft of bow giving some security. Small jib and storm jib hank onto this. Hoist at mast. Usual jib is a beast with huge overlap. It can be carried without reef up to 20knots but tacking becomes very hard work. Not very useful for windward work with more than 2 rolls, it is however useful with half a dozen rolls for heaving to which allows inner forestay and hanked jib to be fitted in relative comfort.

See film of small jib in F6 with gusts to F7 in relatively flat sea about 1 minute 30secs. You can see furled jib ahead of small jib. Apologies for untidy bowlines, loose lazy jack and crew more used to dinghies hanging on to mainsheet.



Have always admired reef points on pardey’s boats and some pilot cutters but cannot see how this could be made to work with roller furling.

 

[charles_reed]

First, if you're ever out in proper heavy weather you'll find any roller furling genoa useless - you can roll down a genoa by about 40%, after that it's as much use as a sailbag up front. Even rolled down to pocket-handkerchief size they collect too many heads of waves to be safe.
Having suffered an "overcoat" storm jib, once, I had it converted to luff groove. That turned out to be too large in any real blow.

I mount my working yankee, on the roller furler, with a long strop to the drum so it's well out of the waves. That's been good in up to 40 knots mean to windward (though I'd not choose that again willingly) and rolls down to about 30ft2, without losing flatness, a more appropriate size than the 64ft2 of the storm-jib.

Temporary inner forestay sails are all very well, but it's a minority of installations which have paid any attention to the unfair forces on the mast - fortunately modern mast sections are sufficiently over-spec to put up with such abuse.

Most specified "storm" canvas is OK up to about Bf6 but, as reported in Fastnet and Sidney-Hobart reports, they're far too large for real storm conditions.

Mind you any sane yottie avoids going to windward in any thing over F5 and downwind in anything over F7.

 

[Seven Spades]

I have a blade sail that we usually fit in the winter and I love it because you can sail it in amazingly storing winds and the boat is in complete control and you do not for one minute feel unsafe, this cannot be said of a part furled genoa. For one thing the shape is distorted so it sails very differently on one tack to the other, and if the sail is rolled away that much it is pretty useless. A blade is a brilliant bit of kit to have because it will get a lot more use than a storm sail, but if you don't have a removable forestay you have to plan in advance to hoist it or change down early enough if passage making.

 

[Jaguar 25]

So, does the overall consensus suggest that if caught in more than a force 5 and all you have is a furling genoa, then you are better off running on mainsail alone rather than part furling the genoa?

 

[Seven Spades]

NO!

Each boat is different and in a F5 you shouldn't need any special sails. Most boats would be able to run with full sale in a F5 without needing to reef, but would need to reduce sale to go to windward because the apparent wind would increase. But if you are running downwind and you are worried that the wind is increasing it is much better to put the main away and just use the genoa, you can easily spill wind from the genoa and reduce its size.

 

[capnsensible]

So, does the overall consensus suggest that if caught in more than a force 5 and all you have is a furling genoa, then you are better off running on mainsail alone rather than part furling the genoa?

Nah. Running offwind is much safer with some rolled genoa and no (possibly gybing) main. I can claim a fair bit of experience with this from 55 knots mid Atlantic a while back to 35 knots in the Straits of Gibraltar last week, to name but only 2!!