Furler headfoil, a cautionary tale

[Quandary]

After the mast went up last month we fitted the boom, mainsail and tuned the rig, when we tried to hoist the roller furling genoa it stopped about 3/4 of the way up the foil, when we eventually got the sail down there was a 50mm. gap where the top two sections of the foil had moved away from the rest. This furler is a Profurl, the alloy foil sections are joined by cast alloy inserts about 120mm. long, they are held together by 4 grub screws, two above and two below each join, the allen key headed screws are threaded into the foil and countersunk, they seem to just grip the core by friction, no visible dimples. It has taken weeks of blood sweat and tears to sort out, the first thing was that the halyard winches are non self tailing and while two speed, pathetically weak, they managed to get me up once but refused thereafter, eventually I managed to extend a halyard and route it to a self tailing sheet winch which while slow was powerful enough. It is ***** uncomfortable hanging from a slanty forestay trying to work on it. The major problem is that all the tiny grub screws were permanently glued in to the alloy, the keys were a strange imperial size around 5/32 or something so skinny and weak, I only managed to shift one.
Eventually, using my 14 stone as a hammer I managed to persuade the sections to join together but the close fitting car refused to go past the join, in the end I finished up hand sanding each joint and lubricating, I tried silicone and ptfe sprays but in the end Pledge worked best.
In the middle of the struggle I went to look at a Facnor foil which was offered to me, similar assembly method but worse, the ss grub screw in that case had philips heads so would not accept the torque needed to shift them.
The sail is up now and hopefully will stay there until the mast comes down.
Lessons I have learned, -
before hoisting the mast
1, check that the top car runs freely the whole length of the foil.
2, lubricate the foil and get the sail up before the lubrication washes away.
3 when assembling a foil be sure to use an isolating coating on any stainless screws going in to aluminium alloy.
4 if you are lubricating a headfoil in situ it is a lot safer to go the top and work your way downwards,

All my previous furlers were Furlex and I did not encounter these problems on any of the versions I had.

 

[pagoda]

After the mast went up last month we fitted the boom, mainsail and tuned the rig, when we tried to hoist the roller furling genoa it stopped about 3/4 of the way up the foil, when we eventually got the sail down there was a 50mm. gap where the top two sections of the foil had moved away from the rest. This furler is a Profurl, the alloy foil sections are joined by cast alloy inserts about 120mm. long, they are held together by 4 grub screws, two above and two below each join, the allen key headed screws are threaded into the foil and countersunk, they seem to just grip the core by friction, no visible dimples. It has taken weeks of blood sweat and tears to sort out, the first thing was that the halyard winches are non self tailing and while two speed, pathetically weak, they managed to get me up once but refused thereafter, eventually I managed to extend a halyard and route it to a self tailing sheet winch which while slow was powerful enough. It is ***** uncomfortable hanging from a slanty forestay trying to work on it. The major problem is that all the tiny grub screws were permanently glued in to the alloy, the keys were a strange imperial size around 5/32 or something so skinny and weak, I only managed to shift one.
Eventually, using my 14 stone as a hammer I managed to persuade the sections to join together but the close fitting car refused to go past the join, in the end I finished up hand sanding each joint and lubricating, I tried silicone and ptfe sprays but in the end Pledge worked best.
In the middle of the struggle I went to look at a Facnor foil which was offered to me, similar assembly method but worse, the ss grub screw in that case had philips heads so would not accept the torque needed to shift them.
The sail is up now and hopefully will stay there until the mast comes down.
Lessons I have learned, -
before hoisting the mast
1, check that the top car runs freely the whole length of the foil.
2, lubricate the foil and get the sail up before the lubrication washes away.
3 when assembling a foil be sure to use an isolating coating on any stainless screws going in to aluminium alloy.
4 if you are lubricating a headfoil in situ it is a lot safer to go the top and work your way downwards,

All my previous furlers were Furlex and I did not encounter these problems on any of the versions I had.

We had a venerable but functional Harken foil of about 1990 vintage. Every season I checked the foil link screws ( very similar to your description - though slotted head and US/Imperial threads) I found myself replacing several missing screws. -which lead to lifting sections and grief!
They are designed to be locked in place by 242Loctite (red) , which I used. As pointed out working on screws on the foil in mid air is not remotely easy.
Any foil which is either left up - or removed is subject to un-natural flexing- which works screws free. I reduced some of that by winding the genoa halyard round the foil several times before snugging it up and securing it. That reduces flex and wobble over the winter. I try to run a scrap of cloth with sail kote dry lubricant up the foil before trying the sail......

 

[Brent Swain]

Build your own .No such problems ,at a fraction the cost.

 

[dom]

Quandary, sounds fun

But can I ask why you did not simply remove the forestay, svce on terra firma, and then replace?

 

[Quandary]

Quandary, sounds fun

But can I ask why you did not simply remove the forestay, svce on terra firma, and then replace?

I did ask for advice on doing that here, no reponse, I did not fancy being at the top of the mast when the forestay was detached and I was concerned that the bending involved in replacing it might do more damage to the joints.

Must admit I never thought of asking Brent for advice on making and fitting a steel one.

 

[dom]

I did ask for advice on doing that here, no reponse, I did not fancy being at the top of the mast when the forestay was detached and I was concerned that the bending involved in replacing it might do more damage to the joints.

Must admit I never thought of asking Brent for advice on making and fitting a steel one.

At least you now know that if you were happy monkeying around suspended from jib halyard + forestay strop, a drop and replace would have been easy by comparison

It does of course depend a bit on whether the mast is deck or keel stepped, masthead or deck mounted, and if there are sufficient free halyards, inner stays etc up top. Also avoiding a foil kink can be a consideration. Still, many roads to Rome.

Costs of winding-up a 1x19 forestay and fabricating the various parts ...prob about £27.50 at a guess

 

[Resolution]

Build your own .No such problems ,at a fraction the cost.

Out of steel, I presume?

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Rather than relying on grub screws (friction problems) or using pop-rivets (semi-permanent) the 'best' solution, IMHO, is to drill into the joining piece, tap to take the screws of your choice and applying a suitable barrier paste like Durolac that will also function as a thread-lock of sorts.
On various boats I have had Plastimo (flimsy and the plastic luff-groove subject to splitting), Facnor (excellent, never gave me any trouble) and now Goiot furlers (very good but now old, in my case).

 

[Quandary]

I still do not understand what is being suggested?
Unless I go somewhere and anchor in >12m of water, at some point in the lowering and raising, the top of the foil would be vertical while the bottom is horizontal, the catenary it would assume would put considerable strain on all the joints, how do you guys avoid that? When the mast is craned out there is enough support from the spreaders etc to avoid undue bending but the foil on its own still need careful handling.
Not many £27.50 riggers around here, though I was actually offered a complete foil for free, even lying on the ground I could not dismantle it hence my recommendation for Durolac or similar when fitting from new.

 

[dom]

I still do not understand what is being suggested?
Unless I go somewhere and anchor in >12m of water, at some point in the lowering and raising, the top of the foil would be vertical while the bottom is horizontal, the catenary it would assume would put considerable strain on all the joints, how do you guys avoid that? When the mast is craned out there is enough support from the spreaders etc to avoid undue bending but the foil on its own still need careful handling.
Not many £27.50 riggers around here, though I was actually offered a complete foil for free, even lying on the ground I could not dismantle it hence my recommendation for Durolac or similar when fitting from new.

I wasn't clear, £27.50 is about Can$50..............

Seriously though, your point re the foil: click the link below and FF to 13:15. This is not to say that some foils will not risk a kink (for example at a bad joint), but they shouldn't otherwise. If worried, an additional pair of hands at ground level can lift the foil to relieve the major pressure points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgPgVY1aWsU

 

[knuterikt]

I still do not understand what is being suggested?
Unless I go somewhere and anchor in >12m of water, at some point in the lowering and raising, the top of the foil would be vertical while the bottom is horizontal, the catenary it would assume would put considerable strain on all the joints, how do you guys avoid that? When the mast is craned out there is enough support from the spreaders etc to avoid undue bending but the foil on its own still need careful handling.
Not many £27.50 riggers around here, though I was actually offered a complete foil for free, even lying on the ground I could not dismantle it hence my recommendation for Durolac or similar when fitting from new.

This is what Selden say about this http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1456145028/595-540-E.pdf page 30

•Lay the furling system on the dock beside the crane.
•Step the mast without the jib furling system, and use the genoa halyard as a temporary forestay. Tie the halyard to the outermost (as seen from the dock) mooring cleat in the bow. Do not rely on key shackles or snap shackles.
•Tighten the genoa halyard, and ease off the backstay/cap shroud to bring the forestay attachment fitting forward.
•Tie the spinnaker halyard to the top of the jib furling system and secure the knot with tape.
•One person now climbs the ladder on the crane until the forestay attachment can be reached. Another person raises the jib furling system using the spinnaker halyard. A third person lifts the lower end of the jib furling system to prevent it dragging along the ground.
•The furler is attached to the mast, and the person aloft brings the spinnaker halyard down.
•The lower end of the system is attached to the forestay deck fitting.
•Cast off the genoa halyard and tighten the backstay/cap shrouds

 

[Brent Swain]

This is what Selden say about this http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1456145028/595-540-E.pdf page 30

•Lay the furling system on the dock beside the crane.
•Step the mast without the jib furling system, and use the genoa halyard as a temporary forestay. Tie the halyard to the outermost (as seen from the dock) mooring cleat in the bow. Do not rely on key shackles or snap shackles.
•Tighten the genoa halyard, and ease off the backstay/cap shroud to bring the forestay attachment fitting forward.
•Tie the spinnaker halyard to the top of the jib furling system and secure the knot with tape.
•One person now climbs the ladder on the crane until the forestay attachment can be reached. Another person raises the jib furling system using the spinnaker halyard. A third person lifts the lower end of the jib furling system to prevent it dragging along the ground.
•The furler is attached to the mast, and the person aloft brings the spinnaker halyard down.

I just lower the furler over the side in deep water from a halyard, then pull it in place with the halyard. Using sch 40 aluminium
1 1/4 inch pipe for my extrusion makes far less prone to kninking furler.
•The lower end of the system is attached to the forestay deck fitting.
•Cast off the genoa halyard and tighten the backstay/cap shrouds

 

[Quandary]

Selden usually give good advice, but 4 persons a crane (with a ladder) ?????

twice a year 5 of us get together, we hire a local 20m. reach hiab. (£400) we berth each boat in turn the mast is lifted with the furler alongside, placed on the step, the furler is walked forward and the forestay attached plus all the other shrouds, 15 mins alongside then the next boat comes in, only one person needed though often there are more. Nobody leaves the ground. In practice, because the furler is longer than the mast it goes forward before the heel goes down. I have stepped masts in about 7 different yards in Ireland and Scotland, never seen it done the 'Selden' way.
Trouble was the crane had gone before I knew I had a problem, there is plenty of deep water down Loch Fyne but not much shelter, which I like when at the top of a mast with no forestay attached, alongside there is usually someone willing to help, not so much down the loch.

 

[knuterikt]

Selden usually give good advice, but 4 persons a crane (with a ladder) ?????

twice a year 5 of us get together, we hire a local 20m. reach hiab. (£400) we berth each boat in turn the mast is lifted with the furler alongside, placed on the step, the furler is walked forward and the forestay attached plus all the other shrouds, 15 mins alongside then the next boat comes in, only one person needed though often there are more. Nobody leaves the ground. In practice, because the furler is longer than the mast it goes forward before the heel goes down. I have stepped masts in about 7 different yards in Ireland and Scotland, never seen it done the 'Selden' way.
Trouble was the crane had gone before I knew I had a problem, there is plenty of deep water down Loch Fyne but not much shelter, which I like when at the top of a mast with no forestay attached, alongside there is usually someone willing to help, not so much down the loch.

This is in case you want install the furling system when the mast is already stepped.