Fuel Abroad? (France)

[Lulla-Belle]

Guys as we all know the main running costs of our beloved toys is Fuel, for us that leave the marina!

When away in the UK & Ireland I normally avoid buying fuel in Marinas as the mark up is normally extortionate.

Instead we arrange to meet a tanker and refuel via them at some pre arranged Quayside Harbor etc.

Last year on our travels to France found the costs of fuel even crazier than the South Coast Marinas paying as much as Euro 1:75 per litre in credit Card dispensing machines situated in the marinas, at one stage Euro/ £ 1/1.

Just a little thought have any of you refueled esp in France form tankers in any Harbors , Quayside and if so was the saving worth it.

Just browsing now cost of fuel in Southern Brittany Euro 1:60 in marinas, Im aware we now have a different situation with exchange rates today Euro 1 = £0.89 it helps a little!

Just looking to enjoy our hols even more by not getting fleeced by the over zealous Capitiniere!!

Thanks for any input or advice in advance.

 

[Bandit]

Where is your home port?

 

[Lulla-Belle]

Home Port Uk - Cardiff

Home in France - Port la Foret

 

[Bouba]

I’ve used a tanker in France, but to be honest the price in the port was actually a little less. The advantage of a tanker is there is probably less contamination. But, at least here in the South, there is quite a lot of variation from port to port so it’s worth shopping around (but don’t make a trip just for fuel).

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I paid about €1.50/litre refuelling from a tanker in Antibes earlier this year which is about €0.10-0.15 less than the marina fuel berth

 

[NGM]

The advantage of a tanker is there is probably less contamination......).

That's interesting, I've always been advised the opposite, in that the source of the tanker fuel is not always reliable and that you should always get a sample when using a tanker for reference in case there are contamination issues.

 

[Bouba]

That's interesting, I've always been advised the opposite, in that the source of the tanker fuel is not always reliable and that you should always get a sample when using a tanker for reference in case there are contamination issues.

My logic is that the marina receives its fuel by tanker, so it’s one stage less. The fuel then spends who knows how long in the marina where it runs the risk of contamination from rust and seawater. But it’s only based on my gut feeling and one bad issue with water in the fuel

 

[NGM]

My logic is that the marina receives its fuel by tanker, so it’s one stage less. The fuel then spends who knows how long in the marina where it runs the risk of contamination from rust and seawater. But it’s only based on my gut feeling and one bad issue with water in the fuel

ok understood, and that's logical if you use the same tanker/supplier as the marina.
but I often see and have used seemingly independent tankers and the source and age of the fuel is unclear.

 

[jrudge]

I used to tanker in France ( Côte d’Azur ) not tried on the Atlantic coast - doubt there is much demand.

It is cheaper but the marina only used to let them in fairly early in the morning. Gone by 10/11 as I recall

 

[Portofino]

There’s for too many variables to arrive at a definitive answer on the “ tanker Vs marina “ question .
Short ans -
Basically it’s down to two elements
1- CR or none CR , the none CR being more tolerant.
2- water contamination- in which case that’s down to your own filtration armamentarium.

Long ans

Probably the most damaging area affected by entrained air/vapors is the engine's fuel injectors. One of the functions of diesel fuel is to lubricate the injectors as they are working. As the entrained air/vapor passes through the
injector it is not providing complete lubricity.
This lack of lubrication for the injector's barrel ad plunger becomes even more critical with the tight tolerances and high fuel pressures used in today's injectors. The entrained air/vapor creates a metal on metal situation. Over time the plunger can start to stick and as it wears, factory tolerances are lost. This causes fuel blow- by in the injector. According to Caterpillar's handbook, entrained air/vapor can create up to 50% greater forces by the plunger on the injector tip. As the fuel comes out the injector tip under high pressure the entrained air/vapor can also act much like an acetylene torch, eroding the injector tip. These two things in combination can lead to the injector tip breaking off."

Injectors
Fouling due to solid deposits inside a diesel fuel injector or its nozzle is an important problem experienced with diesel fuel injectors. This phenomenon arises during injector aging and consists of a series of chemical reactions whose products are deposited on the external and/or internal metallic surfaces of the injector and/or nozzle. Diesel injector fouling deposits can be broadly categorized as injector nozzle deposits and internal diesel injector deposits (IDID). The latter are also referred to as internal injector deposits (IID).
The factors that affect injector deposits basically fall into three categories: (1) properties and chemical composition of the fuel properties, (2) local fuel temperature of the geometry and (3) the injector nozzle and internal fuel wetted surfaces.
Properties and Chemical Composition of the Fuel. Fuel characteristics such as high viscosity, low volatility and reactivity of the unsaturated hydrocarbon chains (olefins, aromatics), can facilitate carbon deposits at the nozzle holes and the formation of protuberances on the injector nozzle tip. The presence of small traces of Na, Zn, Cu, and Ca in the fuel (metal contamination) has been demonstrated to significantly intensify nozzle fouling as well as internal injector deposits .The additive package dispersed in the fuel also has an important effect on metal contamination and more generally on injector coking.
The presence of biodiesel in the fuel can also impact injector deposit formation. In some cases, depending on its detailed composition, biodiesel can have little impact on the accumulation of injector nozzle deposits . In other cases, biodiesel can contribute to the formation of injector deposits. Not only does biodiesel contain trace metals that can intensify injector deposit formation, biodiesel oxidation products can contribute to deposit accumulation. Carboxylic acid formed during biodiesel oxidation can corrode iron surfaces to yield an iron carboxylic salt layer. This salt layer can then trap other components found in the fuel, for example polymers that are also formed during biodiesel oxidation .
Local Fuel Temperature. The influence of temperature on nozzle coking is also significant .The thermal condensation and cracking reaction kinetics of diesel fuel has been shown to accelerate the rate of deposition in the nozzle when temperatures exceed about 300°C. This value seems to be a critical threshold for coking in diesel engines.
A number of engine design parameters such as EGR and charge air cooling can influence the in-cylinder gas temperature and thus the temperature of components exposed to cylinder gases such as the injector nozzle. These design parameters can also impact nozzle fouling since chemical reaction rates, including those related to injector deposit formation, are very sensitive to temperature.
Injector Geometry. A third factor that affects injector deposit accumulation is the injector geometry. One current tendency in common rail injectors is to increase the number of injection holes (e.g., from six to eight) and to reduce their diameter.This, together with the continuous increase in the injection pressure level, has been one way of coping with Euro 5 emission limits. However, smaller diameter injector holes intensify coking effects, due to their higher sensitivity to fouling. Furthermore, hydro ground and convergent injector holes are often employed as a means of improving the nozzle discharge coefficient and inhibiting cavitation. Unfortunately reduced levels of cavitation can increase the accumulation of deposits in injector nozzle holes. Cavitation in the nozzle holes is commonly believed to help remove coking deposits.
Nozzle Deposits


Nozzle deposits have been a problem for many years .These deposits typically form inside and around nozzle fuel flow holes on the tip of the injector, and can have several important consequences including:
• degrading the injector spray pattern (e.g., reduced jet penetration and increased spray asymmetry) and thus increase particulate emissions,
• deposits on the outer surface of the nozzle can increase the effective surface area for hydrocarbon adsorption or condensation and subsequently lead to higher unburned hydrocarbon emissions. This can give some nozzle deposits a wet appearance .
• a reduction in the effective flow area of the nozzle holes at maximum injector lift and consequently a reduction in the maximum power and/or torque available from the engine.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My logic is that the marina receives its fuel by tanker, so it’s one stage less. The fuel then spends who knows how long in the marina where it runs the risk of contamination from rust and seawater. But it’s only based on my gut feeling and one bad issue with water in the fuel

Agreed. My logic is that because its volume is much smaller, a tanker turns over its contents much more often than a marina fuel station where the fuel may be stored for months on end especially over the quiet winter months which gives more time for the fuel to become contaminated by water and bacteria. Also there is the commercial imperative. A marina fuel station is a semi monopoly which has no real need to maintain its standards whereas if a private fuel tanker service gets a reputation for delivering contaminated fuel, its going to go out of business pretty quick

 

[jrudge]

Porto. Your logic is flawed ... where do you think the marina get their diesel from !

I have run a tanker dry at the end of the day ( in Corsica) as they ship a lot of litres going down a single quay. We were 3500 litres. The ones next door several times that. In Antibes when I used him he went boat to boat to boat to boat so it won’t hang around long

 

[Portofino]

Porto. Your logic is flawed ... where do you think the marina get their diesel from !

I have run a tanker dry at the end of the day ( in Corsica) as they ship a lot of litres going down a single quay. We were 3500 litres. The ones next door several times that. In Antibes when I used him he went boat to boat to boat to boat so it won’t hang around long

Can you explain the flaw ?

 

[Rocksteadee]

There’s for too many variables to arrive at a definitive answer on the “ tanker Vs marina “ question .
Short ans -
Basically it’s down to two elements
1- CR or none CR , the none CR being more tolerant.
2- water contamination- in which case that’s down to your own filtration armamentarium.

Long ans

Probably the most damaging area affected by entrained air/vapors is the engine's fuel injectors. One of the functions of diesel fuel is to lubricate the injectors as they are working. As the entrained air/vapor passes through the
injector it is not providing complete lubricity.
This lack of lubrication for the injector's barrel ad plunger becomes even more critical with the tight tolerances and high fuel pressures used in today's injectors. The entrained air/vapor creates a metal on metal situation. Over time the plunger can start to stick and as it wears, factory tolerances are lost. This causes fuel blow- by in the injector. According to Caterpillar's handbook, entrained air/vapor can create up to 50% greater forces by the plunger on the injector tip. As the fuel comes out the injector tip under high pressure the entrained air/vapor can also act much like an acetylene torch, eroding the injector tip. These two things in combination can lead to the injector tip breaking off."

Injectors
Fouling due to solid deposits inside a diesel fuel injector or its nozzle is an important problem experienced with diesel fuel injectors. This phenomenon arises during injector aging and consists of a series of chemical reactions whose products are deposited on the external and/or internal metallic surfaces of the injector and/or nozzle. Diesel injector fouling deposits can be broadly categorized as injector nozzle deposits and internal diesel injector deposits (IDID). The latter are also referred to as internal injector deposits (IID).
The factors that affect injector deposits basically fall into three categories: (1) properties and chemical composition of the fuel properties, (2) local fuel temperature of the geometry and (3) the injector nozzle and internal fuel wetted surfaces.
Properties and Chemical Composition of the Fuel. Fuel characteristics such as high viscosity, low volatility and reactivity of the unsaturated hydrocarbon chains (olefins, aromatics), can facilitate carbon deposits at the nozzle holes and the formation of protuberances on the injector nozzle tip. The presence of small traces of Na, Zn, Cu, and Ca in the fuel (metal contamination) has been demonstrated to significantly intensify nozzle fouling as well as internal injector deposits .The additive package dispersed in the fuel also has an important effect on metal contamination and more generally on injector coking.
The presence of biodiesel in the fuel can also impact injector deposit formation. In some cases, depending on its detailed composition, biodiesel can have little impact on the accumulation of injector nozzle deposits . In other cases, biodiesel can contribute to the formation of injector deposits. Not only does biodiesel contain trace metals that can intensify injector deposit formation, biodiesel oxidation products can contribute to deposit accumulation. Carboxylic acid formed during biodiesel oxidation can corrode iron surfaces to yield an iron carboxylic salt layer. This salt layer can then trap other components found in the fuel, for example polymers that are also formed during biodiesel oxidation .
Local Fuel Temperature. The influence of temperature on nozzle coking is also significant .The thermal condensation and cracking reaction kinetics of diesel fuel has been shown to accelerate the rate of deposition in the nozzle when temperatures exceed about 300°C. This value seems to be a critical threshold for coking in diesel engines.
A number of engine design parameters such as EGR and charge air cooling can influence the in-cylinder gas temperature and thus the temperature of components exposed to cylinder gases such as the injector nozzle. These design parameters can also impact nozzle fouling since chemical reaction rates, including those related to injector deposit formation, are very sensitive to temperature.
Injector Geometry. A third factor that affects injector deposit accumulation is the injector geometry. One current tendency in common rail injectors is to increase the number of injection holes (e.g., from six to eight) and to reduce their diameter.This, together with the continuous increase in the injection pressure level, has been one way of coping with Euro 5 emission limits. However, smaller diameter injector holes intensify coking effects, due to their higher sensitivity to fouling. Furthermore, hydro ground and convergent injector holes are often employed as a means of improving the nozzle discharge coefficient and inhibiting cavitation. Unfortunately reduced levels of cavitation can increase the accumulation of deposits in injector nozzle holes. Cavitation in the nozzle holes is commonly believed to help remove coking deposits.
Nozzle Deposits


Nozzle deposits have been a problem for many years .These deposits typically form inside and around nozzle fuel flow holes on the tip of the injector, and can have several important consequences including:
• degrading the injector spray pattern (e.g., reduced jet penetration and increased spray asymmetry) and thus increase particulate emissions,
• deposits on the outer surface of the nozzle can increase the effective surface area for hydrocarbon adsorption or condensation and subsequently lead to higher unburned hydrocarbon emissions. This can give some nozzle deposits a wet appearance .
• a reduction in the effective flow area of the nozzle holes at maximum injector lift and consequently a reduction in the maximum power and/or torque available from the engine.

Bugger, that is enough to make you want to take up sailing

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Bugger, that is enough to make you want to take up sailing

And you thought it was simple? Its not just about starting the engines and pushing the throttles forward you know. You need a PhD in Physical Chemistry to own a motorboat

 

[MapisM]

Otoh, you need attitude to take on sailing. I'd rather aim at the PhD!

 

[Rocksteadee]

Otoh, you need attitude to take on sailing. I'd rather aim at the PhD!

Set your sights low

 

[Lulla-Belle]

Bugger, that is enough to make you want to take up sailing

Was thinking along the same lines!

 

[Assassin]

Its fairly simple, some countries will be cheaper at the marina while others will be cheaper from a tanker so a little research is necessary before choosing, you may (or may not) have charges for delivery and discharging, particularly if the fuel is pumped and not gravity fed.

Cleanliness is a misnomer as all fuel tankers are clean as they work regularly and they provide fuel to numerous customers and not just boats, industrial, agricultural, and even military applications may be their bread and butter work so they are regularly working and constantly moving fuel as no company can have a tanker or bowser simply for refuelling boats as it is uneconomical.

Nozzle contamination is also a total crock of shyte as the main source of contamination is actually from the pipes which sit on the side of the vehicle and can get everything from water during inclement weather, to dust and dirt inside them through the vehicle travelling and this is minimal as it is constantly working, similarly, their storage tanks are large and constantly charged and discharged and fuel quality is regularly monitored so contamination, while not impossible, is highly unlikely.

 

[jrudge]

In Italy I asked and they told me you had to pay for the local fire station to come along and spectate - so whilst the diesel was cheaper the net cost was more.