RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
If it helps, on my STs I never use cleats or jammers. After sheeting in with ST, I place two safety wraps around the winch drum. Always works, never has caused the sheet to be released from the ST.
From non-ST to ST genoa sheet winches
- Thread starter BabaYaga
- Start date
thinwater
Well-Known Member
a. Multihullers are more likely to favor cam cleats over jam or standard cleats. The idea of having a sheet secured in a such a cumbersome way is strange to us. Why would you do it that way? We see jam cleats in this application as an anachronism.
b. The load should be taken off a jammer with a winch before releasing. Failure to do this can result in jams, as well as an uncontrolled release. Clutches can be released without unloading, but it still hard on the rope and the line should still be on a winch. Likewise, most cam cleat insert and release problems stem from incorrect angles and not understanding that the rope should be moving inwards (load relieved) during these actions. You can just cleat or uncleat a line in a cam cleat under load and expect it to go well. You need to unload the cams.
Yes, ST winches can hold the load, but if the jaws are worn, not enough turns are loaded on the drum, or the rope not well matched, they can slip or slip off. Too many turns on the drum can result in excess friction, sticky release, and overrides.
Winches, ST winches, jammers, cam cleats and ordinary cleats all have ins and outs that are not obvious.
b. The load should be taken off a jammer with a winch before releasing. Failure to do this can result in jams, as well as an uncontrolled release. Clutches can be released without unloading, but it still hard on the rope and the line should still be on a winch. Likewise, most cam cleat insert and release problems stem from incorrect angles and not understanding that the rope should be moving inwards (load relieved) during these actions. You can just cleat or uncleat a line in a cam cleat under load and expect it to go well. You need to unload the cams.
Yes, ST winches can hold the load, but if the jaws are worn, not enough turns are loaded on the drum, or the rope not well matched, they can slip or slip off. Too many turns on the drum can result in excess friction, sticky release, and overrides.
Winches, ST winches, jammers, cam cleats and ordinary cleats all have ins and outs that are not obvious.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
A good practice. Of course, this slows release in gusty conditions. It cannot be released unless you walk over to the winch (can't release while sitting on the other side). Not important to most cruisers, perhaps, but a non-starter for racers and performance boats.
A cam cleat is simply the better way to do it. Progress.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
That's a bit categoric!
If there is space and it can be aligned then I don't see why not.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
It must be very difficult to sheet any headsail with this arrangement as, as far as I can see, the winch handles fouls or almost fouls the lifelines. You cannot get your 'body' over the winch as the upper lines lines are in the way. It seems you can only make less than half turns with the winch handle and a 2 handed winch - the handle will be too high. It will be easier with a ST as you can put both hands on a one handed winch handle and make quarter turns of the handle - but it looks very clumsy. The horn cleats looks to be self locking.....???You may well be right, if I go ST, I will soon find out.
I guess much depends on the layout of the cockpit, design of coamings etc.
I will not do away with the jamming cleats until I find out whether they are still useful or not.
This photo gives an idea of my cockpit layout and winch 'shelfs', taken on a broad reach in light conditions (where ST winches would not bring any special benefit, of course).
From the photos, excellent pictures (beautifully kets yacht), I don't see many, if any options.
I get the impression this yacht was never considered for racing.
Surely I have this wrong....?
Jonathan
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Did you read the explanation? It was not intended to be categorical, only practical.
If you have a winch, the load is almost certainly more than a cam cleat can hold. That's why we have jammers and clutches. Cam cleats are really only for hand-tensioned lines. For example, the WLL for a Harken 150 is 136 kg, but winch loads (sheet tension) on a 29-foot boat will easily reach 250-500 kg.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
This may be true, many of the mainsheet systems I see use cam cleats to hold the mainsheet (which can be a devil to release if under much tension) (which is why some main sheets use a fine tune) and bigger yachts use (ST) winches.
I speak from some hard won experience of what happens when a main sheet cannot be released quickly.
Jonathan
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Yes, a potential problem for larger boats, where it is hard to have an adequate size tackle.
For example, F-boats over about 28 feet struggle with this. My cruising cat had a winched fmainsheet, which was better (and even so, I increased the tackle from 3:1 to 4:1 for better manual sheeting in light winds). As I said, you must be able to pull the line through the cam cleat for smooth, safe release. When the pressure exceeds that which you can easily pull and hand-hold, you need either more purchase or a winch. For example, my F-24 has 7:1 tackle, which is just adequate at the reefing point. It came with 6:1 which I did not feel was adequate (perhaps enough for a younger, stronger guy...). I ran 6:1 on a beach cat and 8:1 on a Stiletto 27.
BabaYaga
Well-Known Member
Yes, partly.
There is no problem of the winch handle fouling the lifelines, not even close. Full turns can be made. But it is true that the upper lifeline somewhat restricts where I can position my body when grinding. But I think the ergonomics would improve quite a bit if I didn't have to assign one hand for just tailing the sheet.
The horn cleats are the jamming type and works well.
No, typical cruiser, inspired by classic looks from the 50s and 60s.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Underlined by the pot plants - a lovely and human touch. It suggests an attention to detail - with the catering - as well as the sail work
Jonathan
BabaYaga
Well-Known Member
Neeves
Well-Known Member
At sea - ours live in the sink. We also need rosemary for the lamb. At anchor they come out to the cockpit.Where do others grow their parsley and basil?
Jonathan
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Only the other day I asked my parsley where she came from.Where do others grow their parsley and basil?
"From the jar" she replied.
"No, no, where do you really come from?"
"From Waitrose, I suppose."
"At last, now we're getting somewhere!"
Ps I don't believe she's from Waitrose. I think she's from Aldi but of course I'm not allowed to say that in today's woke climate.
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LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
Good point.
billskip
Well-Known Member
The real bonus is ST's could extend your sailing life, no better bonus than that.