From non-ST to ST genoa sheet winches

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BabaYaga

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I am considering upgrading to ST genoa winches and would appreciate some feedback, especially from anyone who has done the same fairly recently.

Was it worthwhile? Was it awkward to get used to? Main benefits? Are there any drawbacks?
The boat is a 29' mast head sloop, genoa a little over 25 sqm.
Currently there are the original two speed Lewmar 30's dating from 1980, with the addition of 'Winchers* (rubber rings over the top that add some friction when the drum i fully loaded). The sheets are belayed on jamming cleats.

With regard to the considerable outlay, I could need some help in convincing myself that it would be money well spent (or the opposite).
 
BabaYaga said:
I am considering upgrading to ST genoa winches and would appreciate some feedback, especially from anyone who has done the same fairly recently.

Was it worthwhile? Was it awkward to get used to? Main benefits? Are there any drawbacks?
The boat is a 29' mast head sloop, genoa a little over 25 sqm.
Currently there are the original two speed Lewmar 30's dating from 1980, with the addition of 'Winchers* (rubber rings over the top that add some friction when the drum i fully loaded). The sheets are belayed on jamming cleats.

With regard to the considerable outlay, I could need some help in convincing myself that it would be money well spent (or the opposite).
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If you currently cope with what you have, why bother? Especially if you tend to sail with 3 or more on board. Keep going with the originals until they conk out. Spend your money elsewhere.

If you're sailing alone and(1) it's a struggle to wind with one hand and tail with the other hand, it can make a big difference to upgrade to ST. And (2) there's a safety benefit to being able to bang the sheet in quicker and with more control every tack / gybe, so you can revert to keeping watch etc. And (3) you are much more likely to trim the sails more which is fun, gets you there faster, and also has safety benefits. In my opinion, it's a necessity, but it's not my money.

Or if usually 2 up, how much of a bore is it to ask the other person to stop having fun/making the tea so they can tail for you?

The act of releasing a ST winch requires a little skill, but once learned it is reliable and safe. The kit itself is excellent; reliability issues from the 70s or so are long since ironed out.

Conclusion: if you are regularly 1 or 2up, do it. Spread the cost over 20 years and put that in context of annual mooring, insurance, antifoul and anodes. If mainly 3up, stick with what you have if you feel inclined.
 
NormanS said:
Definitely ST. There's no way that I would go back to non ST. But it's not my money.
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...and big money it is!

We had all 6 Lewmar ST winches off the boat recently to fully recondition at home and I couldn't help thinking, if we somehow lost them, the boat could effectively be a constructive loss due to replacement value (and they wouldn't be insured anyway as our policy doesn't cover equipment removed from the boat!).
 
I have standard winches on my boat, have thought about ST but the current Lewmars are in excellent condition, and although I do often sail s/h I am not convinced that the cost of changing them for ST is worth it.
 
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As said above, if you have crew is there any point,....if you do a lot of single hand as I did/would do in future then st's are a must for me.
 
I wonder about doing the same, but I single hand most of the time and don’t seem to have a problem with winching and tailing at the same time, on my 29’ masthead sloop. It does seem a lot of money!
 
ST winches are a bit like an autopilot; they are each worth at least half an extra crew member. Like NormanS, I would hate to go back to plain winches except in the smallest boat. They are undoubtably expensive, and best specified from new. Although I would always recommend them, it would be worth the OP cadging a sail on a boat with STs to help make up his mind.
 
I'd agree fully with the positive comments above. Like most on here, I've sailed boats with ST winches and some without. There's no comparison in ease of use and efficiency. I'd encourage BabaYaga to go sailing on someone else's boat, with ST winches. The difference will be immediately obvious.

I've recently replaced the older original sheet winches on my current 27' 'project' boat with Lewmar ST30s. There was a bit of work ensuring a solid 'backing plate' - the new bolt holes fixing the winches down were - of course - in different places, but a robust job was done.

I have simple non-ST winches on the coachroof, and these have rubber 'Winchers' fitted - which work well enough for the tasks alloted.

;) Edit: BabaYaga's existing winches could be sold for a decent price - if in good condition - which would defray the cost of new ST winches. He could also keep a lookout for decent used ST winches on the various sites...... like dozens of others!
 
PeterV said:
I wonder about doing the same, but I single hand most of the time and don’t seem to have a problem with winching and tailing at the same time, on my 29’ masthead sloop. It does seem a lot of money!
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I have no real problem either on a slightly larger boat. I would certainly fit them if the cost was reasonable but it was too steep for me.

My original winches had lost their chrome, re-chroming was about £300. Upgrade to self tailing would have been over £2000. In the end I found a pair of unused Lewmar 43's for £450 and sold my old ones for about £100. So the cost difference was about £1,700.
The old stock winches look good and are a size up on the originals, so a bit faster and bit more powerful.

.
 
If price is an issue, obviously check second hand, eBay etc, or save hard. Offset the cost by selling your old, but fully serviced ones.

Are they worth it, yes, for single handing and for short handing, the convenience and added safety in handling sheets under tension is worth every penny, plus sheeting efficiency is greatly enhanced.

Do it, you will not regret it. At the end of the day, say £800 for pair, that's just 8 car tank fulls of fuel, 8 curry and beer nights. It's chicken shit money in the grand scheme of boat ownership, at significant benefit to you.
 
Thank you all for the replies so far, interesting reading.
The existing winches are in good condition, however I have had them replated once and the drum surface lost a bit of its 'grip' in the process. The rubber Winchers though are worn and would need replacing if I keep the L30s.
I single hand quite a bit and when not, the sheeting job is still mine, as my wife doesn't quite have the arm strength.
Part of the reason for considering an upgrade is that the ones I am looking at specifically , Andersen 34s, would mean a slightly higher power ratio than the existing.
 
Those with non self tailers are quite happy to soldier on with what they've got, whilst those with self tailers would never go back to non self tailers.. Thankfully the last two boats that I have had have both had self tailers. You can't take your money with you, spend it while you can.
 
Not so fast.... I have used both, often on the same boat often in the same size, and there is a difference that should at least be mentioned.

For rapid tacking, a non-tailing winch is faster to throw turns on and off. For this reason, many race boats prefer non-ST. J-boats up to J-80 use non-ST winches with a cam cleat just below. It ain't the money, it's faster. My F-24 uses ST winches on the primaries (jib), also with cam cleats) but the secondaries for the reacher or chute are non-ST with cam cleats , because we like it better that way. Easier to trip from across the cockpit than with a sheet in the ST jaws. How do you release that quickly from your seat on the rail? (You can, with a trick, but it is less controlled.)

So think about it. On a smaller boat, grinding is still a one-man job, grinding with one hand and tailing with the other. ST does not help that much. As for the friction rings, put those in the bin. Useless. Non-ST with a cam cleat is better.

But this is not to say I dislike ST. They have their place on larger boats where you need two hands to grind. Absolutly love em for that. They are nice for minor trim adjustments on any size boats. I'm just not totally sold on them for smaller boats, below about 27'. I am sold on the need for a cam cleat near the winch, even with ST, even on big boats.

For singlehanding, get a tiller wheel pilot.
 
thinwater said:
For rapid tacking, a non-tailing winch is faster to throw turns on and off. For this reason, many race boats prefer non-ST.

So think about it. On a smaller boat, grinding is still a one-man job, grinding with one hand and tailing with the other. ST does not help that much. As for the friction rings, put those in the bin. Useless. Non-ST with a cam cleat is better.

But this is not to say I dislike ST. They have their place on larger boats where you need two hands to grind. Absolutly love em for that. They are nice for minor trim adjustments on any size boats. I'm just not totally sold on them for smaller boats, below about 27'.

For singlehanding, get a tiller wheel pilot.
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I am not racing, but speed of tacking is still a consideration. One question: Can you use a ST winch as a non-ST winch with the handle in place if you wish, only taking the tail to the ST jaws for getting the last decimetres of sheet in?

I would not say the rubber Winchers are rubbish.... but they make sheeting a bit unreliable, in my experience. I only use them to increase friction, not for cleating off.

Already have the tiller pilot, but I don't use it much for tacking.
 
I had 2 pairs of ST 30s on my Bavaria 33 with a 20sqm jib and a 60sqm cruising chute. The aft pair were close enough to the wheel such that I could short tack up and down the harbour. Left the handles in all the time and often in lighter airs I could get away without cranking at all, or only the last bit of trimming. Forward pair were used for the chute. Would not be without them - fortunately my latest boat came with ST 43s, way OTT and i might see if I can sell them and go down to 30s as genoa is around 25sqm
 
BabaYaga said:
I am not racing, but speed of tacking is still a consideration. One question: Can you use a ST winch as a non-ST winch with the handle in place if you wish, only taking the tail to the ST jaws for getting the last decimetres of sheet in?

I would not say the rubber Winchers are rubbish.... but they make sheeting a bit unreliable, in my experience. I only use them to increase friction, not for cleating off.

Already have the tiller pilot, but I don't use it much for tacking.
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Yes, you can leave the rope out of the jaws. In fact, you ALWAYS leave the tail out when pulling the jib across hand-over-hand (1-2 turns on the drum), and ONLY put the tail in the jars (4-6 turns) when you start grinding. Of course, the handle is kind of in the way anytime you add or remove turns.

I suggest learning to use the tiller pilot when tacking. It should work (autotack feature) but you do need to learn the tricks, such as bumping +10 a few times just before hitting auto tack to get the boat to tack past close hauled just a little. Easing the main a little at head-to-wind also helps. The auto tack works better in stronger winds than very light wind.
 
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