From Greece to Where ... exactly

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BurnitBlue

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For principle or economy where is the alternative to Greece?

Can we pin down some prices based on recent experience. Take into account facilities, ease of access from N. Europe.

Croatia, Italy, Turkey, Red Sea, South of France, Spain, Mediterranean N.Africa, Albania?

Outside the Med and still with sunshine, Morocco, Canaries, Algarve, Caribbean.

With the best will in the world Greece still comes out on top, or have I missed somewhere?
 
When I tired of the Ionian we moved AB up to Monfalcone Italy. Very easy access from N Europe. But visiting Croatia is not cheap now. This year we sailed from Preveza to Cartagena which we're really enjoying, first winter afloat for many years. A lot of peeps have gone to Sicily.
 
BurnitBlue said:
For principle or economy where is the alternative to Greece?

Can we pin down some prices based on recent experience. Take into account facilities, ease of access from N. Europe.

Croatia, Italy, Turkey, Red Sea, South of France, Spain, Mediterranean N.Africa, Albania?

Outside the Med and still with sunshine, Morocco, Canaries, Algarve, Caribbean.

With the best will in the world Greece still comes out on top, or have I missed somewhere?
Click to expand...

For Information Only

Taking everything into consideration we spend about half what we spent in Greece 2010 - 2012 now in Turkey. Certainly the cost of living here is much less - unless you use tourist bars and cafes when its just a little less. Our local cafe charges 2.5 TL for one course and a drink that's about 70p and you get a free cup of cay thrown in - how do they do that? The fresh fruit and veg have nothing in common with the Greek offering, it has taste and its always fresh; getting Pork is a bit of problem sometimes - wonder why? :-).

We pay much less for mooring (30%) and we have a 12 month contract, the boat spends about 7 months a year out of the marina but a 12 month contract is the cheapest option (July and August in the marina its too hot). Our electricity bill is around 50 Euros per year metered with a smart dongle thing, in Greece with the same usage and on paper the same tariff (0.35C per KWH) we were paying 25 Euros a month and had no way of telling if this was genuine so no appeals were heard. Water is 4 Euros per tonne and its metered so you only pay for what you use. You could but we don't eat your dinner of the walkways in the marina scrubbed and washed down several times a day. Environmental rules are irksome. The saving on sparks more than covers the cruising log @100 Euros all in with an agent, its going on line soon - they say.

Blue Card pump outs are free, the card costs 20 LIRA. We run a water maker when cruising powered by a 4 KVA genny and it works very well. Diesel is expensive at 4.47 TL per litre but it is real diesel 35 sec and not heating oil 28 sec they often served up in Greece.

Chandlery is generally much more reasonably priced than Greece - unless you buy from the businesses beside marinas, that said the chandlery inside our marina is very competitively priced, often not worth bringing stuff from the UK.

10/40 Mineral oil is 100TL for 20 Litres from the sanayi usually BP or Total

2 stroke outboards are available new at very reasonable prices

Its by no measure a perfect place but we like it

That is our experience, it may be flawed it doesn't suit everyone but it is our experience.
 
Marsupial said:
For Information Only

Taking everything into consideration we spend about half what we spent in Greece 2010 - 2012 now in Turkey. Certainly the cost of living here is much less - unless you use tourist bars and cafes when its just a little less. Our local cafe charges 2.5 TL for one course and a drink that's about 70p and you get a free cup of cay thrown in - how do they do that? The fresh fruit and veg have nothing in common with the Greek offering, it has taste and its always fresh; getting Pork is a bit of problem sometimes - wonder why? :-).

We pay much less for mooring (30%) and we have a 12 month contract, the boat spends about 7 months a year out of the marina but a 12 month contract is the cheapest option (July and August in the marina its too hot). Our electricity bill is around 50 Euros per year metered with a smart dongle thing, in Greece with the same usage and on paper the same tariff (0.35C per KWH) we were paying 25 Euros a month and had no way of telling if this was genuine so no appeals were heard. Water is 4 Euros per tonne and its metered so you only pay for what you use. You could but we don't eat your dinner of the walkways in the marina scrubbed and washed down several times a day. Environmental rules are irksome. The saving on sparks more than covers the cruising log @100 Euros all in with an agent, its going on line soon - they say.

Blue Card pump outs are free, the card costs 20 LIRA. We run a water maker when cruising powered by a 4 KVA genny and it works very well. Diesel is expensive at 4.47 TL per litre but it is real diesel 35 sec and not heating oil 28 sec they often served up in Greece.

Chandlery is generally much more reasonably priced than Greece - unless you buy from the businesses beside marinas, that said the chandlery inside our marina is very competitively priced, often not worth bringing stuff from the UK.

10/40 Mineral oil is 100TL for 20 Litres from the sanayi usually BP or Total

2 stroke outboards are available new at very reasonable prices

Its by no measure a perfect place but we like it

That is our experience, it may be flawed it doesn't suit everyone but it is our experience.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for that breakdown of costs and comparison to Greece. It certainly makes Turkey a viable alternative.

I must solve the holding tank installation before I head that way unless a Porta Potti will be acceptable. I have just replaced the keel bolts and installed a new engine so I need a break from work on the boat and do some sailing in 2014.

So it's Porta Potti or Greece for another year. Sounds stupid putting it like that but it is the crunch for me.
 
The holding tanks situation is as I say irksome and is unlikely to go way. Plastic holding tanks seem to last longer than stainless steel ones but I have yet to find a supplier for plastic ones in Turkey, maybe someone reading this knows. At the moment the choices are Tek tanks or a locally made stainless device.

Edit: As far as I know a portapoti is acceptable but you may have difficulty finding convenient places to empty it. They now have pumpout boats in many bays (and they should be free - we have never paid for a pumpout) - so they are slowly getting their act together.
 
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Marsupial said:
The holding tanks situation is as I say irksome and is unlikely to go way. Plastic holding tanks seem to last longer than stainless steel ones but I have yet to find a supplier for plastic ones in Turkey, maybe someone reading this knows. At the moment the choices are Tek tanks or a locally made stainless device.

Edit: As far as I know a portapoti is acceptable but you may have difficulty finding convenient places to empty it. They now have pumpout boats in many bays (and they should be free - we have never paid for a pumpout) - so they are slowly getting their act together.
Click to expand...

Thanks again. I think I saw a version of the PortaPotti that had hose fittings for an in situ pump out. YES. Just googled and a shore side pump out model MSD is made by

http://www.thetford.com/HOME/PRODUCTS/PortableToilets/PortaPotti365MSD/tabid/160/Default.aspx

Thetford. So that should be legal and acceptable. (If I can find one in Greece)
 
I'm curios Marsupial, which marina are you in? We're in Teos and couldn't agrre with you more.
Holding tanks - a friend of ours (in Teos) had a locally made nylon/plastic tank fitted lats year - works well.:encouragement:
 
Marsupial said:
The holding tanks situation is as I say irksome and is unlikely to go way. Plastic holding tanks seem to last longer than stainless steel ones but I have yet to find a supplier for plastic ones in Turkey, maybe someone reading this knows.
Click to expand...

I do believe there a tank supplier / manufacturer on the left as you enter the Sanayi at Marmaris.
 
Jeva said:
I'm curios Marsupial, which marina are you in? We're in Teos and couldn't agrre with you more.
Holding tanks - a friend of ours (in Teos) had a locally made nylon/plastic tank fitted lats year - works well.:encouragement:
Click to expand...

Kas
 
Marsupial said:
The holding tanks situation is as I say irksome and is unlikely to go way. Plastic holding tanks seem to last longer than stainless steel ones but I have yet to find a supplier for plastic ones in Turkey, maybe someone reading this knows. At the moment the choices are Tek tanks or a locally made stainless device.
Click to expand...

There's another excellent plastic option....the glass-reinforced kind. And easy enough to make it yourself.
 
Hi Marsupial, we are looking at going crusing next year in Greece and Turkey and I read that you could only spend 90 days in any 180 in Turkish waters, you say you sail and stay all year! How do you get round this or have I missed something, we really wanted to sail Greece but with the possible introduction of the new tax we would consider Turkey as a very nice alternative.

Marsupial said:
For Information Only

Taking everything into consideration we spend about half what we spent in Greece 2010 - 2012 now in Turkey. Certainly the cost of living here is much less - unless you use tourist bars and cafes when its just a little less. Our local cafe charges 2.5 TL for one course and a drink that's about 70p and you get a free cup of cay thrown in - how do they do that? The fresh fruit and veg have nothing in common with the Greek offering, it has taste and its always fresh; getting Pork is a bit of problem sometimes - wonder why? :-).

We pay much less for mooring (30%) and we have a 12 month contract, the boat spends about 7 months a year out of the marina but a 12 month contract is the cheapest option (July and August in the marina its too hot). Our electricity bill is around 50 Euros per year metered with a smart dongle thing, in Greece with the same usage and on paper the same tariff (0.35C per KWH) we were paying 25 Euros a month and had no way of telling if this was genuine so no appeals were heard. Water is 4 Euros per tonne and its metered so you only pay for what you use. You could but we don't eat your dinner of the walkways in the marina scrubbed and washed down several times a day. Environmental rules are irksome. The saving on sparks more than covers the cruising log @100 Euros all in with an agent, its going on line soon - they say.

Blue Card pump outs are free, the card costs 20 LIRA. We run a water maker when cruising powered by a 4 KVA genny and it works very well. Diesel is expensive at 4.47 TL per litre but it is real diesel 35 sec and not heating oil 28 sec they often served up in Greece.

Chandlery is generally much more reasonably priced than Greece - unless you buy from the businesses beside marinas, that said the chandlery inside our marina is very competitively priced, often not worth bringing stuff from the UK.

10/40 Mineral oil is 100TL for 20 Litres from the sanayi usually BP or Total

2 stroke outboards are available new at very reasonable prices

Its by no measure a perfect place but we like it

That is our experience, it may be flawed it doesn't suit everyone but it is our experience.
Click to expand...
 
BurnitBlue said:
Thanks again. I think I saw a version of the PortaPotti that had hose fittings for an in situ pump out. YES. Just googled and a shore side pump out model MSD is made by

http://www.thetford.com/HOME/PRODUCTS/PortableToilets/PortaPotti365MSD/tabid/160/Default.aspx

Thetford. So that should be legal and acceptable. (If I can find one in Greece)
Click to expand...

Why not have a holding tank made from GRP? Strong, low cost, corrosion resistant and easy to make in a shape to suit your boat
 
rolfbudd said:
Hi Marsupial, we are looking at going crusing next year in Greece and Turkey and I read that you could only spend 90 days in any 180 in Turkish waters, you say you sail and stay all year! How do you get round this or have I missed something, we really wanted to sail Greece but with the possible introduction of the new tax we would consider Turkey as a very nice alternative.
Click to expand...

this is a fairy complex and contentious issue and they are always mauling it about. the tourist visa is a 180 day visa and lets you stay in the country for a maximum of 90 days, so from the time you first buy your visa to the time it expires in 180 days you may spend 90 days in Turkey. You have to be out of Turkey for 1 day after the 180 days has expired before you can buy another visa. Lots of people try to produce convoluted arguments and circumstances that could/might circumvent these rules but they are mistaken. You are now able to buy these visas on-line. £10 for a Brit.

The solution for a yottie is to purchase a 12 month residency visa with the cruising LOG, the agent will arrange it sorry I don't know the cost but its not excessive, it works out to be multiples of the Tourist visa - roughly.

Some say you need a marina contract but this is not so - find another agent.

The consular office just mooted that there may be some changes to the residency visa, at a first inspection it looks like another case of unintended outcomes so lets not dwell on those yet awhile - but they will only affect people staying over 8 years - IT SEEMS AT THE MOMENT
 
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Awesome, thats what I love about this place, always learning something new. Depending on the Greece situation with regards their "new tax" we may just go to Turkey for our first year cruising the med, thank you :-)
 
Marsupial said:
this is a fairy complex and contentious issue and they are always mauling it about. the tourist visa is a 180 day visa and lets you stay in the country for a maximum of 90 days, so from the time you first buy your visa to the time it expires in 180 days you may spend 90 days in Turkey. You have to be out of Turkey for 1 day after the 180 days has expired before you can buy another visa. Lots of people try to produce convoluted arguments and circumstances that could/might circumvent these rules but they are mistaken. You are now able to buy these visas on-line. £10 for a Brit.

The solution for a yottie is to purchase a 12 month residency visa with the cruising LOG, the agent will arrange it sorry I don't know the cost but its not excessive, it works out to be multiples of the Tourist visa - roughly.

Some say you need a marina contract but this is not so - find another agent.

The consular office just mooted that there may be some changes to the residency visa, at a first inspection it looks like another case of unintended outcomes so lets not dwell on those yet awhile - but they will only affect people staying over 8 years - IT SEEMS AT THE MOMENT
Click to expand...

The Turkish rules for a tourist visa are the same as non EU visitors to the Schengen countries. You can get a visa and "back to back" as Marsupial says but you can only stay for 90 days in the previous 180 from date of departure so the allowable maximum period can overlap two visas . As he says initially get a Tourist 90/180 visa , which from next April will only be available in advance on line( no stamps upon arrival) , and then get a 12 month Residence Permit within a few weeks of arriving. There are fundamental changes to these which have been announced by the government which come into effect on the 10 April 2014 and which mean unless you have been in the country for 8 years the maximum RP will be 12 months and that includes people like myself who currently have multi year RPs when we come to renewal.
 
Thanks akyaka, what happens after the 12 RP runs out? how long do you have to leave for? We are hoping to do 2-3 years in the Med and if we like the life style then we plan to travel further afield with a dream to circumnavigate one day, but we are under no illusions and small steps is what we will start with. If we dont like the life style or the money runs out we have a back out plan already in place. He who dares does not regret :-)
 
rolfbudd said:
Thanks akyaka, what happens after the 12 RP runs out? how long do you have to leave for? We are hoping to do 2-3 years in the Med and if we like the life style then we plan to travel further afield with a dream to circumnavigate one day, but we are under no illusions and small steps is what we will start with. If we dont like the life style or the money runs out we have a back out plan already in place. He who dares does not regret :-)
Click to expand...

As far as I am aware you will be able to renew towards the end of the 12 months just as is done at present . I have a vested interest in this aspect as our multi year RPs are due for renewal next May. The mechanics of obtaining/renewing the Residency Permits is being developed, there's no surprise its Turkey, and Residence Permits is probably worth a separate thread particularly as many currently obtain them when they arrive in Turkey and current information suggests that first timers may not be able do this.
 
I do believe there a tank supplier / manufacturer on the left as you enter the Sanayi at Marmaris.

Marsupial said:
Thanks for that I will take a look
Click to expand...

Much as I try to avoid agreeing with Albert, he's right; we had a tank built by them and it was brilliant.

Back to the original thread: When we arrived in Greece (2006) our bank account heaved a sigh of relief after passing through the western Med. However, when we sailed back west in 2012, we were amazed to find that living-expenses were less in both Italy and Spain than the level they'd crept up to in Greece, though admittedly, cheap/free moorings and anchorages were wider spread and harder to find.

It may be just us, but having cruised for the last ten years we've found that allowing a bit for inflation, our overall annual costs have remained virtually unchanged wherever we've been - if the expenditure on moorings goes up, we just eat out a bit less.
 
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