From Genoa to Civitavecchia

[TerryCrow]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how long it could take to sail ...

- from Genoa to Civitavecchia and back to Genoa
- at the end of January
- without using a motor, just sailing

I believe it could take between two to three days from Genoa to Civitavecchia (unknown time of the year), but it would take longer when returning back to Genoa, wouldn't it?

Thanks for your thoughts in advance,
Terry

 

[Mrnotming]

Genoa to Civitavecchia sailing

Consider, very light days, no breeze days, too much wind days and whether you sailboat has the propensity to go in light airs ,(i.e. taller mast, bigger light air genoa or inherently racing underwater profile) balanced against slower heavy weather designs.Perhaps you could give the forum more information about the type of vessel you intend to use for the attempt?
Good sailing in the meantime.

 

[TerryCrow]

Sorry, I should have thought of it.

I'm looking into this from a historical point of view - beginning of the 17th century.

Let's see, it'll be something similar to the French Gabare (scow in English, I think). I'm using the gabare "Notre Dame de Rumengol" as an example:

length overall - 21.70 m
beam - 6.54 m
hull draft - 2.2 m
57 tons
8 knots
2 masts with 5 sails
3 men crew

I assumed 190 miles at 4 knots, about 48 hours. But then my lack of knowledge started bickering at things like winds and sea currents:
would they help on the go and delay on the return, or the other way around or not at all...

Thanks for your reply,
Terry

 

[Mrnotming]

Hi again Terrycrow,

I know nothing of the type of vessel you describe,

However I do know that there are currents in the Med, and I would suggest, respectfully, that you visit the website SHOM.fr to find the publication which contains these streams.They are not very strong on the route you describe, but can affect sea state and your predicted ETA's.

Also there is a website called Hisse-et-oh

here it is http://www.hisse-et-oh.com/ where you may get some interested French replies to a query, perhaps in English, perhaps not!Good luck with your planning. At least there a er plenty of ports to duck into if it all goes pear-shaped!

 

[TerryCrow]

Thanks, I'll give it a try

Terry

 

[Roaring Girl]

Hi, we're in Genoa at the moment, and about to do that sail, having come up the other side of the Gulf.

There are currents here but they're very weak - maybe a knot or so. I suggest that other things are much more important. (Apols if you know all this.)

There's the impact of sea state on your vessel. I'm not sure how seaworthy those scow-type boats are but the sea here can kick up a very short-backed nasty sea which is very difficult to manage. (As an example, we have recently fought a F4 NE combined with a 1m swell which slowed us down to 1.5kts even with a 64hp engine, and against which even modern Bermudan rig would struggle.) This is of course much more likely to happen in winter. It easily slows down a boat, even a modern large yacht, and makes it hobby horse, rendering it vulnerable to pooping or pitchpoling. So your crew will need to be able and prepared to risk very bad conditions at that time of year.

Weather in the area is governed by depressions in the Gulf of Genoa (themselves linked to the mistral). If one takes hold, then it pushes a southerly up that coast, which would help them along.

I am not sure what techniques they used for long range forecasting in those days, beyond prayer! Therefore, it seems more plausible that they would ensure they had ports of refuge, at the very least, or arrange to only do short hops with stops where they could stop waiting for improved weather. They would, I suggest, only take on such a trip in the face of dire necessity, and there's no assumption it would go smoothly.

But if for narrative reasons, you just want a smooth journey at 4 knots, then it's about 190nM, with a few islands to dodge on the way. There are lots of stopping points - few of which would make an ideal cruisery long-term anchorage but would certainly make for a stop over.

Hope this helps a fellow writer pondering his options!

 

[TerryCrow]

Many thanks. Yes, it does help.

I don't have "a schedule" to stick to, although getting a one-week journey would be far more interesting than just a couple of days.

My problem is that, not being knowledgeable as for what makes sailing boats go faster or slower, I'm stuck with averages such as the 190 miles / 4 knots.

Would I be pushing the envelope if I asked you a more educated guess than my average? I'm now kind of tempted to average it to 1.5 knots instead of 4 knots, and maybe some delays for stops.

Say there wouldn't be any real storms, but strong winds ( ENE 8 knots, NNW 8.5 knots, when travelling south; ENE 8 knots, SSE 8.5 knots when travelling back North). How much would it affect an average 4 knot speed?

I'm sorry if this is too much. Feel free to just point me to some sites that can help me get an idea.

Anyway, thanks and enjoy your journey; hope everything goes great.
Terry
PS: Funny how writers spot eachother

 

[libra]

Genova-Civitavecchia

Hello Terry,

Even though I've never sailed from Genoa to Civitavecchia or vice-versa, I have got a certain experience of Sailing in Mediterranean.
So here is my two pence if it may be useful.

I think for your boat the average 4 knots should be oK. So even your assumption of three days to CV and four to come back - in my opinion - is a good assumption IF you are willing and prepared to motor along the way.
In Mediterranean to say "no motor, just sail" is a mere utopia. Of course you can be lucky and find a fair steady wind, but you must take into account the possibility of strong gales (in January usually you may have one or two of them and so to be still in harbour), and even several days of no wind at all.
But the wind conditions (and so the speed) may depend also upon the route you decide to follow, i.e., a direct one, sailing offshore, or along the coast stopping for the night in a harbour.

Just as an example: long ago I sailed from my Home town (Cagliari, Sardinia, far souther than Civitavecchia) To Genova, in wintertime, with a 36 feet long sloop and it took only three days stopping one night in nothern Sardinia an another one in Corsica. The wind was week/moderate but we had to motor for about half the journey. Probably it would have taken double the time if counting only on the sails.

Best regards,
Donato

 

[TerryCrow]

Thanks, Donato

I'll have to stick only to sails so I'll take your "double time" of three days from Cagliari to Genova. Being that Cagliari is souther than Civitavecchia, then I suppose it'll cover some extra dead times.

By the way, ever since I started looking at this problem I've been wondering...

if a person is sailing (again just the awful sails ) one route south, and at the same time another person is sailing the same route north (I mean that the wind conditions would be the same) would their journey take the same time or not? I mean, sails are designed to use wind from almost any direction it's blowing, right? But they won't have the *same* speed.

Thank you again for your "two pence",
Terry

 

[Roaring Girl]

This could get really complicated. the short answer to being able to sail the same in any direction is absolutely not!! Sadly. the simplest way to do iot, from your POV is not to get bogged down in technicalities but assume that (i) they aim to day sail and stop at night and (ii) they get reasonably fair winds and (iii) they do about 4 knots. That way you can take as long as you need by an inconvenient days blow in the wrong direction forcing them either to (a) spend bloody hours at sea slogging it out against a head wind or (b) sit in port and squabble there. The aim, if I get your drift, is more to create a closed environment for a period of time in which various interactions occur. if so, then don'tget stuck into it but assume the wind is either coming on the beam (sideways) or from roughly behind teh boat.

Now - what do you know about shamanstic communing with the dead (my current narrative issue)?

 

[TerryCrow]

Thanks, Roaring Girl I'll do just that.

Now, when you say "shamanistic communing with the dead", you're referring to Amerindian shamans or African, European...?

I've dwelt a bit on it, while reading some stuff, but it's mostly from a "pre-historic" point of view (not Amerindian, which is a world in itself although along a common axis). You know, analysing legends and dying out traditions such as the religious understanding of the world (and its spirits) and how to contact or influence them. Think bear cult.

So could you be a bit more specific? I'll be able to see what I've gathered on the subject more easily.

Terry

 

[TerryCrow]

OK, I couldn't shake your question out of my mind so I've put together a general approach. Sorry if you already know this.

“shaman” is a Tinguist word meaning “the one who is transported”

Shamanism involves:
-personal ecstasy, that is, ascending to heaven (the dwelling of the gods/spirits, no Christian connection) or descending to the soul’s hell (the dwelling of the dead, no Christian connection)
- Belief in animal spirits, the masters/teachers of nature (Tricksters, like the Coyote, share the role of teaching animals/people how to master something)

First, I’ll go over “spirits”. It can refer to:
- The souls of the dead (ancient Rome had a wealth of distinct type of souls/ghosts, if you want me to go into it, I’ll give you a list of them later)
- “spiritus familiaris”, a familiar spirit, a kind of “alter ego”. It is separated from the person but it is connected through sympathic magic (I’m not sure about the proper translation for “magia simpatica”, that is magic that happens through similarities – think voodoo dolls), which means that the death of one of the involved elements will force the death of the other one. You can get the “seeing through one another’s eyes”, feeling what the other feels, etc.
- “spiritus tutelaris”, a guardian/protection spirit. It is an entity that can be inherited or acquired; it can benefit a person, a group of people, a time or a place; it can be a thing, an animal, the soul of an ancestor, the head/master/teacher of an animal species, and so on…

Spiritus Tutelaris is the most common with shamans, although you can have many instances of the spiritus familiaris, so I’ll dwell on them for a bit.
Men can identify themselves with their guardian spirit through participation in actions or metamorphose, examples for these would be the sexual act between two priests (to re-enact the act of gods’ creation (in a myth) or to ensure fertility through this symbolic/sympathic ritual), and lycanthropy (werewolves), masks, certain totems, etc.

An individual usually acquires a spiritus tutelaris through a quest (final result, a vision) where the guardian will give him an object (medicine bag, for example); or someone will offer him the spirit at his birth. In the first case, there will be both an unconscious and conscious bond, in the second case the conscious bond might only develop later on.

These spirits have nothing to do with totems (ancestor animal), animism (animal with soul), animalism (animal cult) or metempsychosis (people reincarnating in animals).

Now, why so much about spirits? Because, depending on traditions, animals (especially as tutelaris, familiaris or animism) are the means of contact with “hell” (again, no Christian pit of fire).

Animals that help contacts with the “other world” (be it in heaven, underground, thick forests, etc) are usually wolves, and later on black dogs; crows; birds of prey only rarely, and owls more than eagles although you can find examples of it; horses, wild and usually black, although you can also have can’t-remember-which-hue-of-brown or be white. More out of Europe, you can also find other animals, such as the snake (python) and water related animals (I can’t pinpoint them for you, and, anyway, they’re more related to life and creation, not death – like the turtle). I’m not sure, but the hare might also be used.

Now, I’ve left out the bear, which I believe is the better studied case in shamanism (the Arctic circle is usually where you can pinpoint the most important shamanistic traditions; again, do not mistake shaman with medicine man, whose abilities (some) may overlap with some of the shaman abilities).
It is still done, in Siberia and in the Ainu island of Japan (the Ainu, the native people, are not Japanese.) Basically, a bear cub is adopted by a family who will treat it as a great guest. Then, neighbouring tribes are invited to the celebration and, on that day the animal will be both teased and pampered so as to confuse it. The time will come when the bear is tied to a place and then people start attacking it so as to anger it, and then they’ll start stoning him, finally, when the bear rises (almost human like) on its two feet, the best archer (or spearman) will hit the bear’s heart.

The bear is difficult to kill, so a clean death can only occur when the bear rises in a menacing posture; the killer is usually from the invited tribes, so that the spirit of the bear won’t hold a grudge on their “adoptive family”, from whom it’ll remember being well treated.

After the bear dies, its spirit goes to heaven, taking to the gods/heavenly spirits good tidings/etc from the tribe (again, it was killed by “foreigners”). Its dead body is skinned: the meat is eaten (if I’m not mistaken) except by women and the skin is put over a bear representation (statue, priest, etc). But the head is taken into the woods and placed at the top of a tree (it may also be inside a tree). This is because the head holds the spirit, and being at the top of the tree will help the bear’s trip to heaven.

So, in this ritual, the bear is the messenger, not a guide to the shaman, but you can see how you could tweek it into something else. (a shaman could don the bear skin and be guided by the dead bear spirit into heaven)

Going back to the contacts with the dead, they are usually related to the death of the shaman:
- Physical death, or near death. Through violence, shock or ingestion (poisons), the etheric body separates itself from the physical body, allowing the journey to the “other world”. It is after this separation that an animal spirit will appear to guide the shaman. (everything is symbolic in this “intermediary world”)
- Initiatic death. It’s related to Initiations: there’s a Test which results in Death and Rebirth. In this perspective, you have to go through a test (solitude and starvation in the woods; facing a lion, etc) which will kill you (vision caused by the separation between the physical and etheric bodies; blood and wounds caused by killing the beast, and here you’ll have a kind of sympathic death). While you’re dead, you roam the “other world” and interact with its spirits, obtaining information that will allow your rebirth (your eyes and understanding will see much farther).

Suffering in solitude (real or social) and lunacy are also forms of contacting (or being in contact with) the “other world”, such as sleep and trances (induced through breathing, musical rhythms, actions, drugs, and so on).
OK. This is it, kind of from the top of my head and a peek at the esoteric dictionary. I recommend finding books by MIRCEA Eliade, which is kind of the biggest authority on the subject of religion and rituals across time and History (pre-history included.)

What I have by him on shamanism is a general approach and explanation (6 pages, more or less, in his Religion Dictionary). If you want me to summarize it for you, just say so.

PS- I don’t usually pinpoint stuff, and I can get pretty general, because I researched much of this while preparing a magical philosophy for my books – I looked for verisimilitude and harmonizing everything into one unified “world“. So I can help you with examples, and some general stuff, but I won’t be able to quote or note down bibliography without going over my chaotically buried research papers. (I follow Sherlock Holmes’s archiving system)

 

[Roaring Girl]

Hi Terry - I've sent you a PM!

sarah