French taxation affecting boat owners.

[Tomahawk]

It seems the French taxation of crew working on boats as well as marina charges etc are having a predictable effect on the rich end of the market.

Whilst none of us sail out of St Tropez, I wonder if this may be a portend of things to come a bit closer to home. With the forthcoming meeting on VAT to sort out the red fuel issue, I wonder if the French will follow the Belgians and start boarding and fining small boat owners?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/02/saint-tropez-gets-sinking-feeling-number-yachts-marina-plunges/

France needs a lot of money at the moment and foreign boat owners may seem an easy target.

 

[Tomahawk]

It seems the French taxation of crew working on boats as well as marina charges etc are having a predictable effect on the rich end of the market.

Whilst none of us sail out of St Tropez, I wonder if this may be a portend of things to come a bit closer to home. With the r meeting on VAT to sort out the red fuel issue, I wonder if the French will follow the Belgians and start boarding and fining small boat owners?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/02/saint-tropez-gets-sinking-feeling-number-yachts-marina-plunges/

France needs a lot of money at the moment and foreign boat owners may seem an easy target.

 

[Bobc]

It appears that this sort of thing is on the rise all over Europe. There have been lots of reports recently of countries imposing high cruising taxes in places like Greece, restrictions on use of boats (i.e. charger use) in Croatia, harbours in the Greek Islands begining to charge mooring fees for the first time, etc.

They all think that they can squeeze the "rich yachties", but will soon realise that one of the joys of boat ownership is that you can vote with your feet.

I bet the local bar & restaurant owners and marine services companies are allpying lots of pressure over this.

 

[Frogmogman]

Mmm. In the case of yachts which are based in France, and where their crews are here permanently or semi-permanently, I don't really see why rich yotties should be excused the taxes and social charges that the rest of us employing people in France have to pay whilst those crews are working in France. Clearly, this doesn't apply to visiting yachts.

Similarly, rates of duty on fuel are a matter for each government. At least in a yacht, if you don't like it, you can clear off.

I understand that a lot of the Russians in Saint Tropez cleared off after all the threats of sequestration of Russian assets following the annexing of the Crimea. After all, Monte Negro is hardly likely to play hard ball with Russia.

 

[philld]

If I remember the report correctly, British registered vessels (of course we're going to be to blame) have moved base to Spain or Italy, were crew and fuel costs are much less.

 

[De.windhoos]

It appears that this sort of thing is on the rise all over Europe. There have been lots of reports recently of countries imposing high cruising taxes in places like Greece, restrictions on use of boats (i.e. charger use) in Croatia, harbours in the Greek Islands begining to charge mooring fees for the first time, etc.



They all think that they can squeeze the "rich yachties", but will soon realise that one of the joys of boat ownership is that you can vote with your feet.

I bet the local bar & restaurant owners and marine services companies are allpying lots of pressure over this.

Greece has been discussing high cruising taxes for years. The only thing that has changed that you now need to renew your cruising permit every year for the incredible sum of 50EU.
They also changed the charges for the municipal harbours, they actually lowered it to 8EU. In some bays you need to pay for a mooring ball, but those are usually owned by restaurants. Normally you either pay a small fee, or you eat at the restaurant. this is pretty normal.
If you charter your boat you must comply with the rules and regulations of the country you charter from. nothing strange about it.
All in all Greece and Turkey are really good countries to sail around.

 

[AndrewfromFal]

Mmm. In the case of yachts which are based in France, and where their crews are here permanently or semi-permanently, I don't really see why rich yotties should be excused the taxes and social charges that the rest of us employing people in France have to pay whilst those crews are working in France. Clearly, this doesn't apply to visiting yachts.

Similarly, rates of duty on fuel are a matter for each government. At least in a yacht, if you don't like it, you can clear off.

I understand that a lot of the Russians in Saint Tropez cleared off after all the threats of sequestration of Russian assets following the annexing of the Crimea. After all, Monte Negro is hardly likely to play hard ball with Russia.

I had a conversation with a superyacht captain about this back in April. IIRC the big change has been that yachts classified as charter yachts that previously didn't have to pay taxes on fuel will now have to unless a certain amount of their charters take place out of French waters, which means pretty much a doubling of fuel costs.

Given that most superyachts based on the Riviera are classified as charter yachts, it's not hard to imagine the impact; and the incentive to spend more time out of French waters, if not to up sticks entirely.

Many of the crews work seasonally, aren't French nationals and are employed offshore, so have in the past managed to exempt themselves from paying taxes. - Not sure what the situation is now.

 

[lw395]

I think once 'the powers that be' in a place annoy a few key people, it's easy for that place to lose its 'fashionable' status.
I'm sure St Tropez was quite charming 40 years ago, but there's a world of choice out there...

 

[Grumpybear]

Further proof that to he French the point of the EU is to protect French interests.

 

[Frogmogman]

Why are there two threads on this subject ?

 

[Frogmogman]

Further proof that to he French the point of the EU is to protect French interests.

But while I'm on, I'd suggest that to the French, it is the point of the French Government to protect French interests. Please explain to me the EU dimension of this story.

I'd have thought the the Brits would like HMG to protect Britain's interests, but apparently that died out with Maggie Thatcher. So now the country is in a sulk and wants it's ball back.

 

[Grumpybear]

But while I'm on, I'd suggest that to the French, it is the point of the French Government to protect French interests. Please explain to me the EU dimension of this story.

I'd have thought the the Brits would like HMG to protect Britain's interests, but apparently that died out with Maggie Thatcher. So now the country is in a sulk and wants it's ball back.

You are right, but it goes beyond that. France has always seen the EU in its various guises as a vehicle for maintaining and increasing French influence in Europe and beyond. For example, the CAP was conceived as a way to keep the French farming lobby on side by both subsidising it and facilitating the dumping of its surpluses abroad.

Margaret Thatcher's determination to protect British interests was seen by Delors and other mainly French Eurocrats as such a threat that Delors collided with Howe and the other rebels to bring her down. Since then no British leader has had the courage to stand up for us, with the honourable exception of Crash Gordon who at least kept us out of the euro. Trying to be "good Europeans" and "at the heart of Europe" has done nothing to convince at least half of the voters that the EU actually cares a fig about the UK's welfare. As de Gaulle once said, "Europe is France and Germany. The rest are just trimmings".

 

[dunedin]

Mmm. In the case of yachts which are based in France, and where their crews are here permanently or semi-permanently, I don't really see why rich yotties should be excused the taxes and social charges that the rest of us employing people in France have to pay whilst those crews are working in France. Clearly, this doesn't apply to visiting yachts.

Similarly, rates of duty on fuel are a matter for each government. At least in a yacht, if you don't like it, you can clear off.

I understand that a lot of the Russians in Saint Tropez cleared off after all the threats of sequestration of Russian assets following the annexing of the Crimea. After all, Monte Negro is hardly likely to play hard ball with Russia.

+1. Alternative headline could be "tax avoidance loopholes being exploited by superyachts being closed"

 

[Sybarite]

I had a conversation with a superyacht captain about this back in April. IIRC the big change has been that yachts classified as charter yachts that previously didn't have to pay taxes on fuel will now have to unless a certain amount of their charters take place out of French waters, which means pretty much a doubling of fuel costs.

As yachts are competing in the charter business there has to be a level playing field. It's one of the things the UK pressed for in the EU.

Given that most superyachts based on the Riviera are classified as charter yachts, it's not hard to imagine the impact; and the incentive to spend more time out of French waters, if not to up sticks entirely.

OTOH if you know how to use French taxation it can become a tax haven for large yachts. Think "quirat".

 

[sailaboutvic]

Greece has been discussing high cruising taxes for years. The only thing that has changed that you now need to renew your cruising permit every year for the incredible sum of 50EU.
They also changed the charges for the municipal harbours, they actually lowered it to 8EU. In some bays you need to pay for a mooring ball, but those are usually owned by restaurants. Normally you either pay a small fee, or you eat at the restaurant. this is pretty normal.
If you charter your boat you must comply with the rules and regulations of the country you charter from. nothing strange about it.
All in all Greece and Turkey are really good countries to sail around.

Lets get the facts right .
It's 50 euros for a new DEPKA , as long as you get it stamp within a year from when you fist buy it , you don't need to buy another one until it's filled , in which case it could be five years , you do have to pay 15 Euros each time you enter Greece from another country ,
The chargers for mooring in an harbour can now be any thing , I been charge 24 euros for one night this years and there been plenty of report this year of charges over that amount , I think 8 Euros is about the min you would pay now .

 

[westernman]

OTOH if you know how to use French taxation it can become a tax haven for large yachts. Think "quirat".

Please explain. It might be useful for me. Thanks.

 

[Sybarite]

Please explain. It might be useful for me. Thanks.

There is a form of company in France called a Société en Nom Collectif without limited liability but which has tax transparency.

That means that each partner can set off his share of the losses against other similar types of income.

Losses can be easily generated with depreciation/capital allowances.

However just renting a boat is not a commercial activity in the sense that a loss can be set off against other commercial profits or earnings.

However if it is a crewed boat catering for clients/charterers it is assimilated to an hotel activity which is commercial in the fiscal sense.

A quirat is the marine equivalent of an SNC with the same tax effect.

quirat masculin

(Droit) (Marine) Part de propriété d'un navire indivis. Lorsqu'un navire n'appartient pas à une seule personne, mais à plusieurs, on le suppose décomposé en un certain nombre de parties égales (ordinairement vingt-quatre) appelées quirats, et les divers copropriétaires le sont pour un quirat, ou pour deux, ou pour trois, etc.

Caution : I have been retired for some time now and so one would need to confirm that there have been no material changes since.

 

[westernman]

Thanks. Might come in useful.

 

[Zing]

As yachts are competing in the charter business there has to be a level playing field. It's one of the things the UK pressed for in the EU.
OTOH if you know how to use French taxation it can become a tax haven for large yachts. Think "quirat".

I'd love to know how socialist France could ever be described as a tax haven. With it's 1.5% wealth tax and a pensioner relying on investment income liable to surchage tax, it's not very hard to drive tax rates up to their maximum 75% level. No wonder London is the 6th biggest French city. France is looking less attractive by the day.

 

[JumbleDuck]

+1. Alternative headline could be "tax avoidance loopholes being exploited by superyachts being closed"

Indeed. This sort of twisted doublethink is all over the place. For example, it's more or less the same people who were saying "Schengen borders are ridiculously weak and something needs done about it" a year ago who are now saying "How dare these bloody foreigners carry out strict security checks at their borders?" and the liveaboard forum doesn't know whether to be more outraged at the Greeks for not paying their taxes or for clamping down on tax evasion by foreign boat owners.