French registration and VAT

[MapisM]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but why should HMRC and/or the UK register be concerned about the VAT of a boat which is actually in the Med?

 

[DAW]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but why should HMRC and/or the UK register be concerned about the VAT of a boat which is actually in the Med?

I think we are all assuming that regardless of where the boat is kept, the intention of the OP would be to register in the UK. While the UK MCA don't particularly care about the VAT status for the purposes of registration, transfer of registration to the UK would break the link between a boat's VAT status and its registration, which may be a problem if the boat is then physically transported into UK waters or if it is resold to a buyer who then needs to re-register in their home country. In both cases, proof of VAT status (usually in the form of an original VAT invoice) would be required.

Also, as a UK registered boat in the Med you would need some other method of satisfying the local customs officers of the VAT status of the boat. While they will accept the French or Italian registration as evidence of this, my experience is they will not accept a UK registration certificate. I always carry laminated copies of registration certificate, original VAT invoice and Bill of Sale to hand over and keep the originals on board in case they insist on seeing them.

 

[DAW]

Yes, but it is better (if you have some negotiating power as buyer) to see those docs before signing so that you know they actually exist. Then a photocopy of them added to the contract, and then the completion condition is delivery of the originals of those docs whose copies are attached to the contract. This is better than just a list, because oftentimes seller won't have them but will sign up to the list and try to blag his way out of trouble on completion day AND he might have your deposit at that stage

Sorry, should have made that clear ... it is of course necessary to see all original documentation well in advance of the proposed completion date. I would insist on seeing everything before signing the purchase agreement if possible (the broker should have already obtained the originals from the seller if he is doing his job) and certainly before incurring the expense of the survey and sea trial. Attaching copies to the agreement is fine, but I would still recommend physical sight of the originals/notarised copies in the hands of the broker.

 

[Whitelighter]

It's pretty much as DAW suggests.

I accept that the boat is VAT paid, but once I take it off the French registry into the British, I lose that proof. So when I come to sell the boat, or indeed should an over zealous Spanish customs official ask, how do I then prove it is vat paid?

That is the nugget that needs to be resolved. Hopefully the French registry will hold copies of the proofs given in 2002 to prove VAT status.

 

[MapisM]

While the UK MCA don't particularly care about the VAT status for the purposes of registration, transfer of registration to the UK would break the link between a boat's VAT status and its registration

Ok, I understand that.
But the first line of your post #16 just made me wonder what the VAT-related papers (even regardless of whether originals or not) had to see with the registration...

 

[jfm]

Attaching copies to the agreement is fine, but I would still recommend physical sight of the originals/notarised copies in the hands of the broker.

I think my point is being missed. I'm saying see them before signing (which you're also saying) and I'm saying then attach copies to the contract with a clause saying something like "upon completion seller shall deliver originals of those docs attached hereto as schedule 1". This totally removes ambiguity about what the seller must produce on the completion date. When completion date comes around, you then do as Deleted User describes which is to sit in brokers office not transferring the money till those specified original docs are right there on the table.

 

[jfm]

.. my experience is they will not accept a UK registration certificate. I always carry laminated copies of registration certificate, original VAT invoice and Bill of Sale to hand over and keep the originals on board in case they insist on seeing them.

DAW is that actually your experience? Are you saying you have actually been asked in the cote D'Azur to prove your VAT status, had the UK reg certificate not accepted, and then produced your VAT invoice? That is your actual experience? I ask because I've been inspected plenty of times including 2 weeks ago in Corsica and have never been asked to prove whether my boat is VAT paid and have never been asked for the purchase invoice. All they care about is whether I'm using tax-free fuel and supplies (which I don't) and whether I meet the relevant conditions (if I were)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

DAW is that actually your experience? Are you saying you have actually been asked in the cote D'Azur to prove your VAT status, had the UK reg certificate not accepted, and then produced your VAT invoice? That is your actual experience? I ask because I've been inspected plenty of times including 2 weeks ago in Corsica and have never been asked to prove whether my boat is VAT paid and have never been asked for the purchase invoice. All they care about is whether I'm using tax-free fuel and supplies (which I don't) and whether I meet the relevant conditions (if I were)

I've certainly never had any issue with my UK registration certificate anywhere in the Med and I've been stopped by customs/police in France, Spain, Croatia and Italy. Even the SSR document seems to be acceptable (I have used a SSR whilst the Part 1 has been going through). Also I have never been asked for a VAT invoice in the Med either although according to Bart, Croatian customs are now checking this

In fact the last time I was pulled was off Sardinia last year and the customs police were more interested in Mapism and his wife who were on board at the time. I think they thought they were either illegal immigrants from N Africa or crew being paid cash w/o declaring tax. I couldn't blame them for thinking that. It seemed they weren't interested at all in our documents or those of the boat

 

[Pinnacle]

In fact the last time I was pulled was off Sardinia last year and the customs police were more interested in Mapism and his wife who were on board at the time. I think they thought they were either illegal immigrants from N Africa or crew being paid cash w/o declaring tax. I couldn't blame them for thinking that.

How much were you paying them? Did you think it was good value?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

How much were you paying them? Did you think it was good value?

I can recommend Mrs M as excellent crew but Mr M was not such good value. When I told Mrs Deleted User that I was employing an Italian stallion as crew, how can I say, well she was a bit disappointed

 

[MapisM]

When I told Mrs Deleted User that I was employing an Italian stallion as crew, how can I say, well she was a bit disappointed

Well, of course she told you that she was.
No sensible wife on earth would tell her husband to be impressed by an Italian stallion, would she...!?

That aside, actually there's another scenario the IT custom boats are after, when some IT citizens are onboard a non-IT registered/owned boat: folks who are actually the boat owners, disguised behind a trust or something, possibly employing a crew and formally paying a charter fee as guests on what is actually their own (commercially registered, and using tax-free fuel) boat.
In fact, the IT pleasure boat tax actually doesn't apply to IT registered boat, but rather to IT citizens (well, to anyone fiscally resident in IT actually, but the difference is neither here nor there in this context) who have, no matter for which title, directly or indirectly, a de facto availability of a pleasure boat.
Therefore, if they would have found that myself and swmbo were the real owners of a lovely F630, they would have earned their salary that month - on top of establishing grounds for investigating other possible/likely tax frauds.
Finding illegal immigrants, or cooks/stallions illegally employed, that's nowhere near as interesting for them!

 

[Pinnacle]

Well, of course she told you that she was.
No sensible wife on earth would tell her husband to be impressed by an Italian stallion, would she...!?


Deleted User

Mrs Pinnacle has already me the "stallion" in question.........so there is no danger she will be disappointed!


That aside, actually there's another scenario the IT custom boats are after, when some IT citizens are onboard a non-IT registered/owned boat: folks who are actually the boat owners, disguised behind a trust or something, possibly employing a crew and formally paying a charter fee as guests on what is actually their own (commercially registered, and using tax-free fuel) boat.
In fact, the IT pleasure boat tax actually doesn't apply to IT registered boat, but rather to IT citizens (well, to anyone fiscally resident in IT actually, but the difference is neither here nor there in this context) who have, no matter for which title, directly or indirectly, a de facto availability of a pleasure boat.
Therefore, if they would have found that myself and swmbo were the real owners of a lovely F630, they would have earned their salary that month - on top of establishing grounds for investigating other possible/likely tax frauds.
Finding illegal immigrants, or cooks/stallions illegally employed, that's nowhere near as interesting for them!

Heavens above P, you're not trying to tell me that folks might have arranged their affairs so as to reduce/eliminate their tax liability, are you? That's not what happens in the UK.

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

No sensible wife on earth would tell her husband to be impressed by an Italian stallion, would she...!?

Mrs Deleted User would have no problem doing that. Fortunately I never listen to her

 

[DAW]

DAW is that actually your experience? Are you saying you have actually been asked in the cote D'Azur to prove your VAT status, had the UK reg certificate not accepted, and then produced your VAT invoice?

No that's not my actual experience ... and I've also been inspected plenty of times ... but then I usually just hand over a folder of documents containing everything and leave them to review and ask questions which they very rarely do.

My understanding based on advice from a friend who is a French/Monegasque marine lawyer is that the minimum requirement for operating a pleasure boat for private use in EU waters (i.e. not under a charter or similar scheme) is to be in possession of original registration documents, ship's radio licenses and proof of insurance. However, he also told me that EU residents are technically only entitled to free passage in the EU when the vessel is VAT paid or deemed to be VAT paid. So while you're not obliged to carry proof of VAT status as part of the boat's papers, it can be requested at any time by customs or their agents and the vessel detained if you aren't able prove it's VAT paid status. Admittedly an almost non-existent risk, but why take it when all you need to do is carry a copy of the original VAT invoice.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Admittedly an almost non-existent risk, but why take it when all you need to do is carry a copy of the original VAT invoice.

Yes agree with that

First time I've seen a ships radio licence document mentioned. Anyone else been asked for this in a foreign country?

 

[DAW]

First time I've seen a ships radio licence document mentioned. Anyone else been asked for this in a foreign country?

You are supposed to have a ship's license listing any equipment fitted to or present on the boat which operates on or emits frequencies which are restricted or regulated within the EU. In practice, this means fixed VHF, handheld VHF, radar, EPIRB, PLBs and anything similar. Again ... all technically/legally what is required and in my experience never checked.

Sadly, many of my French boating friends wouldn't know what to do with a VHF radio and always seem surprised when their mobile doesn't work offshore.

 

[jfm]

Thanks DAW. Yes that isn't my experience too. Excuse my pedantry but I wanted to distinguish between things you've merely heard about and your actual experience. The latter is invariably narrower than the former!

Fwiw I agree with hardly a single word of what you report the lawyer to have said but that's a different discussion.

Mike, for sure the legal penalisation of unlicensed radio is entirely a matter for the uk authorities on a uk flagged boat even in French waters. I've never been asked in any waters to prove my radio is licensed. It is inconceivable that the French douanes would care

 

[Portofino]

Yes agree with that

First time I've seen a ships radio licence document mentioned. Anyone else been asked for this in a foreign country?

Yup I ,ve been asked or should I say they slipped out of the doc,s file on the table .
As DAW says

Reg doc
Insurance
VHF liecence

NEVER anything to with Vat and when you push the vat paid evidence in front before the 3 above ,they just shove it to one side here in SoF .No one give a dam about it .
I have slid across the table my French "permit d Mer " they seem to like the fact I done there qualification ,brings a smile -though not relivant really .
They ask where is the home port too .
Regarding VHF wife and myself have UK each -chap came round to the UK house 2 hours later in the dinning room we both passed and I paid him .
Certs followed -wife ,s never touched a radio since ,but we have another piece of paper to wave about .

 

[wakeup]

Anyone had to show their tonnage plate during these inspections or are they also passé?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, for sure the legal penalisation of unlicensed radio is entirely a matter for the uk authorities on a uk flagged boat even in French waters. I've never been asked in any waters to prove my radio is licensed. It is inconceivable that the French douanes would care

Thats what I thought thanks