French boat permit qualification in UK??

VicMallows said:
Even this statement is incorrect: The certificate you refer to was called the 'Helmsman's Overseas Certificate of Competence' (HOCC). When the ICC was introduced, for a number of years this certificate could be 'grandfathered' into an ICC without the need to take any test.

The HOCC itself existed largely to satisfy French officials who were demanding evidence of competency even back then!
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I think you are right it was a HOCC - so many years ago!!! Semantics.

Tell me does anybody have personal experience of a French official asking for a certificate of competency for a sailing boat?

For ages I was under the impression that that a ICC and a CEVNI were obligatory for a non French person on French Waterways.

When I lived permanently in France, I spent a considerable amount of time talking and writing to all the relevant French official departments including customs, waterway police department as well as the waterways authority and they all confirmed that these rules do not apply to foreign vessels.

Just because there has been a popular misconception over the years and 'authoritative' sources, including my own, have repeated the perceived wisdom does not make it correct.

People often like to have bits of paper that say they have passed some exam or are qualified in some subject and there is nothing really wrong with that - so if anybody wants to get a ICC or a CEVNI to use French waterways then that's fine. I can see no problem with acquiring them, but they are not obligatory.

Let me repeat: Do you personally know of anybody who has been asked for their ICC or CEVNI by French officials?

fair winds and safe landfalls and enjoy the French Waterways as they are a lovely place to be.

Michael
 
Paw Paw said:
As a UK registered vessel and a UK skipper you are bound internationally by UK rules not by the rules that the host country imposes on it's citizens.
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Wrong, this only applies when passing through someone's waters on innocent passage. Once you enter someone's waters, coast hopping for instance, that country can impose it's own rules if it wishes.
 
Phil Mitchell said:
So 10 minutes with a boat company assistant showing you the ropes is as good as having an ICC & CEVNI?
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You bash his boat and he can tell his insurance company that he gave you the training so it ticks another box in the insurance company's requirements.
 
Paw Paw said:
I suspect you mean EU not UN but..........

Let me explain why i made the above statements even if I risk teaching my grandmother................

Around 50 years ago when I was crossing the channel to Cherbourg, Fecamp, Le Treport or even Boulogne or Calais, it was a big deal because GPS and chart plotters did not exist, so it all had to be done with a paper chart laying off tidal streams and deviation etc and was challenging. When you got to the 'other' side, the officials in France could not, and still cannot, get their heads around the fact British domestic craft do not have to be registered. It was necessary to have 'blue book' (part 1) registration which was/ is expensive and time consuming to acquire. (The blue book was a very beautiful document, to be treasured, but now sadly replaced by a laminated bit of A4!)

When UK boats arrived in France without the 'proper' registration papers one or two were also asked for their 'qualifications'. So 'back in the day', the RYA issued for £3, a 'certificate of competence'. (In order to get mine, my club secretary (Warsash Sailing Club) signed a paper stating I had been a member for one year and the RYA sent me an International Certificate of Competence for vessel up to I think 300 tons!!!)

The SSR was created in order to make it simple and French law changed so only French motorboat owners are now required to pass practical and paper exams.

Time moved on and the RYA expanded, and this myth of having to have an ICC if you visit a foreign country was perpetuated. Let me assure you that if you check into Sudan, Sydney, Key West or Spain they will not know what a ICC is or care. They will want to see some registration papers and the SSR will do fine. (Almost any marina you check into will want to see at least 3rd party insurance for obvious reasons.)

The CEVNI reared its head and is now a requirement for the skipper of a boat based on an inland waterway. It is not, and by international maritime law cannot be, required for skippers of boats passing though, of a different nationality. (The French will jump on you like ton of bricks if you have not paid your canals licence fees)

The ICC is a method of proving a basic level of competence if you want to charter a boat. Folks from other countries have their own national certificates and licences and not the ICC.

The RYA is in the business of making money in order to survive and pay it's way. They have cleverly linked the ICC to membership. If you want a ICC you pay less if 'join' the RYA.... A years membership with an ICC included is less expensive than just a stand alone ICC. They have further linked the CEVNI to the ICC and the only way of getting a CEVNI is as an endorsement on a ICC. This endorsement requiring an 'optional' course and an paper exam for a fee.... It is somewhat cynical but a way of raising funds...

Of course it pleased many folks to have bits of paper prooving they are 'qualified' in some way but the ICC is not a legal requirement nor is the CEVNI in the situation I have stated.

Michael
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No it's a UN qualification. I take it from your mention of the EU that you are speaking pejoratively.
It should be known that is also issued by the Irish Sailing Association on behalf of the Irish Government. In order to qualify for it in Ireland, one must have Irish residency, pass a test of competency and knowledge of theory, usually at the end of a two-day course, or else hold at least ISA Day Skipper, or hold a qualification as an instructor in the ISA Cruising Scheme or Small Boat Sailing Scheme.
I have many times needed it for chartering in the Med.
The link below may be illuminating:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Competence
 
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Phil Mitchell said:
So 10 minutes with a boat company assistant showing you the ropes is as good as having an ICC & CEVNI?
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Not a lot of point in posting this here as you have had a full explanation in response to your question on the MOBO forum.

The answers may not suit you, but that is the situation and none of your moaning is going to change it.
 
daverebbettes said:
Can't remember the original question now or whether it was ever answered but loved the exchanges.
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As often happens the simple question was simply (and correctly) answered in the first two responses complete with link to much fully explanation. However the "simple" answers do make some assumptions about the person asking the question, as the underlying issues are far more complex if those assumptions are incorrect. Hence the next 2 and bit pages of exploration of some of those complexities, complete with the required quota of misinformation to provide a basis for argument!
 
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Tranona said:
As often happens the simple question was simply (and correctly) answered in the first two responses complete with link to much fully explanation. However the "simple" answers do make some assumptions about the person asking the question, as the underlying issues are far more complex if those assumptions are incorrect. Hence the next 2 and bit pages of exploration of some of those complexities, complete with the required quota of misinformation required to provide a basis for argument!
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Sums up a lot of threads very nicely! :ambivalence:
 
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