French boat permit qualification in UK??

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bulkedward

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I intend to cruise the French inland waterways. I believe there are 2 French boat permits, one for inland one for off-shore.
I appreciate that hire boats escape the requirement.
However my interest is to find how to qualify here in the UK before starting in France.
Is that feasible?

regards
Bulk Edward
 
bulkedward said:
I intend to cruise the French inland waterways. I believe there are 2 French boat permits, one for inland one for off-shore.
I appreciate that hire boats escape the requirement.
However my interest is to find how to qualify here in the UK before starting in France.
Is that feasible?

regards
Bulk Edward
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You need to get an ICC with the CEVNI endorsement. Full information on requirements is on the RYA website.
 
check with hire companies-----i don t think you need any qualifications to hire----bit of a p-ss off for me having the expense of getting an icc and a cevni-- both meaningless exams that no one fails --to take my small boat on the canals
 
google --canal boating in france--- quote from one hire site---no experience or qualifications necessary-- and they have boats up to 45 feet to hire ---good luck
 
Since I assume from your post that you wish to cruise in your own boat, then Tranona has it. If I got it wrong, then no need if you rent a boat.

Also, the compulsory regs for sea use in French boats are for motor boats. If the primary power is sails, then no regs for the sailor, but several for the equipement on the boat.
 
lenten said:
google --canal boating in france--- quote from one hire site---no experience or qualifications necessary-- and they have boats up to 45 feet to hire ---good luck
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If you do not have a qualification they are obliged by law to give you extensive training and then to verify that you are competent.
This takes time.

In some cases as long as 5 minutes.
 
bulkedward said:
I intend to cruise the French inland waterways. I believe there are 2 French boat permits, one for inland one for off-shore.
I appreciate that hire boats escape the requirement.
However my interest is to find how to qualify here in the UK before starting in France.
Is that feasible?

regards
Bulk Edward
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Despite the answers you have received and the RYA slightly ambiguous advice, the 'reality' is that you do not need to have anything at all. As a UK registered vessel and a UK skipper you are bound internationally by UK rules not by the rules that the host country imposes on it's citizens.

As far as sailing in French waters goes there is no qualification needed. (actually there is no qualification needed for French Citizens in sailing boats)

On the inland waterways I did always think that an ICC and a CEVNI endorsement was required by 'foreign' boat skippers. I spent sometime exchanging emails with the French Authorities and they said 'yes' French citizens must have these qualifications but this is not required of non French skippers/boats. This is born out by the fact that if you hire a 40ft mobo on the Canal du Midi no qualification whatsoever is required.

What you absolutely must have on French Waterways is a licence for the appropriate size of boat and the duration on the canals. You must display this and it will be asked for at many locks.
http://www.vnf.fr/vnf/home.vnf?action=vnf You can order on the internet.

Most marinas in France (and elsewhere) will want to see your insurance documentation in case you prang another boat in their marina - without proper insurance they will not let you park!

The RYA is economical with the truth as of course there is a considerable income from supplying the courses and certificates involved.

Michael
 
Paw Paw said:
Despite the answers you have received and the RYA slightly ambiguous advice, the 'reality' is that you do not need to have anything at all. As a UK registered vessel and a UK skipper you are bound internationally by UK rules not by the rules that the host country imposes on it's citizens.

As far as sailing in French waters goes there is no qualification needed. (actually there is no qualification needed for French Citizens in sailing boats)

On the inland waterways I did always think that an ICC and a CEVNI endorsement was required by 'foreign' boat skippers. I spent sometime exchanging emails with the French Authorities and they said 'yes' French citizens must have these qualifications but this is not required of non French skippers/boats. This is born out by the fact that if you hire a 40ft mobo on the Canal du Midi no qualification whatsoever is required.

What you absolutely must have on French Waterways is a licence for the appropriate size of boat and the duration on the canals. You must display this and it will be asked for at many locks.
http://www.vnf.fr/vnf/home.vnf?action=vnf You can order on the internet.

Most marinas in France (and elsewhere) will want to see your insurance documentation in case you prang another boat in their marina - without proper insurance they will not let you park!

The RYA is economical with the truth as of course there is a considerable income from supplying the courses and certificates involved.

Michael
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This is very misleading. Although you can hire a boat on the Canal du Midi without a licence (operators are permitted to assess competence of potential hirers lacking a qualification), this is not true for those using the canals with their own boat. It is definitely a requirement to have an ICC with a CEVNI endorsement. How could it be other wise as the French were one of the leading proponents of the CEVNI rules.

However, enforcement is patchy, but not unknown, and there have been reports of people not being allowed to enter the canals without the correct documentation.

Nothing to do with the RYA being "economical with the truth" - just reflecting the regulations which have been in place for many years.
 
Tranona said:
This is very misleading. Although you can hire a boat on the Canal du Midi without a licence (operators are permitted to assess competence of potential hirers lacking a qualification), this is not true for those using the canals with their own boat. It is definitely a requirement to have an ICC with a CEVNI endorsement. How could it be other wise as the French were one of the leading proponents of the CEVNI rules.

However, enforcement is patchy, but not unknown, and there have been reports of people not being allowed to enter the canals without the correct documentation.

Nothing to do with the RYA being "economical with the truth" - just reflecting the regulations which have been in place for many years.
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But the French Authorities do not require you as a foreigner to have an ICC or a CEVNI - please visit http://www.vnf.fr/vnf/home.vnf?action=vnf and tell me where it says you must have a ICC or CEVNI if you are to use French Waterways as a foreign yacht. Please post the section that the VNf who are the legal authority for French waterways and control all French waterways make this stipulation.

As for the RYA who are a self elected and self financing organisation they give 'advice' which if proved wrong will do no harm (nothing wrong with that) but have no interest is reducing their own income by pursuing the matter as I did with the French Authorities
Michael
Michael
 
Paw Paw said:
But the French Authorities do not require you as a foreigner to have an ICC or a CEVNI - please visit http://www.vnf.fr/vnf/home.vnf?action=vnf and tell me where it says you must have a ICC or CEVNI if you are to use French Waterways as a foreign yacht. Please post the section that the VNf who are the legal authority for French waterways and control all French waterways make this stipulation.

As for the RYA who are a self elected and self financing organisation they give 'advice' which if proved wrong will do no harm (nothing wrong with that) but have no interest is reducing their own income by pursuing the matter as I did with the French Authorities
Michael
Michael
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What you are saying is contrary to all the advice, practice and experience over many years. The canals in France come under CEVNI (along with most of the other European waterways). The requirement for a CEVNI endorsed licence applies to ALL users, including nationals of the country that the canal goes through. That includes French nationals.

It is not the RYA that determines the requirements as it is merely an agent for the UK government that issues internationally agreed certificates. The ICC is UN sponsored and was set up in order to comply with CEVNI requirements. VNF does manage the canals and licence boats, but that is separate from the overriding requirements of a licence for users.

If you think the RYA are wrong with their advice I suggest you take it up with them. I am sure their legal department will explain it more convincingly that I have.
 
Tranona said:
What you are saying is contrary to all the advice, practice and experience over many years. The canals in France come under CEVNI (along with most of the other European waterways). The requirement for a CEVNI endorsed licence applies to ALL users, including nationals of the country that the canal goes through. That includes French nationals.

It is not the RYA that determines the requirements as it is merely an agent for the UK government that issues internationally agreed certificates. .
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The RYA is a self appointed organisation that has sponsored itself to be the representative of 'boating people' in the UK. Nothing wrong with that but it is self financing and the issuing of 'permits and licences' represent a part of it's income.

Please show me where on the French Government web site of the authority which runs the waterways of France - the VNF - it states that you need to have an ICC or CEVNI to navigate on French waterways.

Now a ICC is a useful tool for charter companies to know if the proposed charterer has got sufficient knowledge to safely navigate a charter boat. I can for example charter boats simply based on my experience.

Michael
 
Paw Paw said:
The RYA is not a self appointed organisation that has sponsored itself to be the representative of 'boating people' in the UK. Nothing wrong with that but it is self financing and the issuing of 'permits and licences' represent a part of it's income.

Please show me where on the French Government web site of the authority which runs the waterways of France - the VNF - it states that you need to have an ICC or CEVNI to navigate on French waterways.

Now a ICC is a useful tool for charter companies to know if the proposed charterer has got sufficient knowledge to safely navigate a charter boat. I can for example charter boats simply based on my experience.

Michael
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Thgink it through. In France you need a licence to use a boat over 10hp on both inland waterways and the sea. To use the canals you need to demonstrate knowledge of of the CEVNI regulations. Explain how you can comply with these two requirements if you do not have an ICC with CEVNI endorsement? The CEVNI test is not available as a free standing test, only to holders of the relevant licence. This applies to French nationals as well.

The RYA is not "self appointed" in this case. It has delegated authority from the UK government to issue internationally recognised certificates under the UN agreement which places the responsibility on governments to issue the certificates to their qualified citizens.

You really are flogging a dead horse here. Please speak to the RYA legal department if you have concerns as they will explain it in more detail to you. You can of course read a good summary of the status of the ICC (which you don't seem to fully understand), its origins and acceptability in various countries on the RYA site. If you disagree with this advice, which has been there, unchallenged, for many years then take it up direct with them.
 
Tranona said:
Thgink it through. In France you need a licence to use a boat over 10hp on both inland waterways and the sea. To use the canals you need to demonstrate knowledge of of the CEVNI regulations. Explain how you can comply with these two requirements if you do not have an ICC with CEVNI endorsement? The CEVNI test is not available as a free standing test, only to holders of the relevant licence. This applies to French nationals as well.

The RYA is not "self appointed" in this case. It has delegated authority from the UK government to issue internationally recognised certificates under the UN agreement which places the responsibility on governments to issue the certificates to their qualified citizens.

You really are flogging a dead horse here. Please speak to the RYA legal department if you have concerns as they will explain it in more detail to you. You can of course read a good summary of the status of the ICC (which you don't seem to fully understand), its origins and acceptability in various countries on the RYA site. If you disagree with this advice, which has been there, unchallenged, for many years then take it up direct with them.
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I lived in France for a decade and as a resident I had to register my sailing boat as a resident French boat. You do not need a 'driving licence' in French waters for a sailing boat, whatever the size of it's motor, even if you are French. If you have a motorboat and there are exceptions for hire boats and small engines. (I think but cannot remember exactly but it is either 5 or 10hp) you must have a driving licence and they come at two level - inshore and offshore.

Some years ago whilst I was writing 'French Canal Routes to the Mediterranean', I did exchange emails with the RYA and the legal department told me that they had been unable to get a definitive answer from the French. Pursuant to that I contacted the French authorities and they said whilst it was useful to have a CEVNI it was not obligatory for for foreign flagged vessels and they did not know what an ICC was. (the ICC is a UK creation and does not exist in any other country)

Now clearly there is nothing wrong with having these certificates but they are not obligatory for British flagged vessels. It is of course anecdotal but having used the French canals since 1970 to move boats between the UK and the Med I have never ever been asked for my ICC or CEVI. There is no country that I have visited around the world that has ever asked me for a ICC. I have never, ever, heard of anybody anywhere being fined or arrested or forbidden to use either inland waterways or the oceans for not having an ICC.

The RYA certificates of competence - ICC to yacht-master offshore are generally recognised in many English speaking countries but are issued by the RYA and not the British Government. My partner has an offshore motorboat driving licence which is issued by the French Government and is an internationally recognised legal qualification. ICC is a British thing. Yes a French national or resident is required to have a CEVNI for the canals but because of International Maritime Legislation actually a UK national on French waterways does not need one and is not going to be asked for one. Have you ever ever heard of anybody being asked to produce their CCVNI?

I know I am repeating myself but please look at the French Government Waterways site and tell me where it says you must have a ICC!

fair winds

Michael
 
Thank you everyone for replying and I am now in the know.
What I wanted to avoid was to have to take the equivalent test in France with the additional complication of the language.
My motor boat is French built (1946) French registered and insured. Our French chums are appalled to think I am unqualified.... Michael's point is well made and taken. I shall however proceed and get the ICC qualification as one learns over time in France it is easier to swim with the tide. Even if when caught speeding on the Route Nationals. Thank you everyone.
Bulkedward





Paw Paw said:
But the French Authorities do not require you as a foreigner to have an ICC or a CEVNI - please visit http://www.vnf.fr/vnf/home.vnf?action=vnf and tell me where it says you must have a ICC or CEVNI if you are to use French Waterways as a foreign yacht. Please post the section that the VNf who are the legal authority for French waterways and control all French waterways make this stipulation.

As for the RYA who are a self elected and self financing organisation they give 'advice' which if proved wrong will do no harm (nothing wrong with that) but have no interest is reducing their own income by pursuing the matter as I did with the French Authorities
Michael
Michael
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Paw Paw said:
The RYA certificates of competence - ICC to yacht-master offshore are generally recognised in many English speaking countries but are issued by the RYA and not the British Government. My partner has an offshore motorboat driving licence which is issued by the French Government and is an internationally recognised legal qualification. ICC is a British thing. Yes a French national or resident is required to have a CEVNI for the canals but because of International Maritime Legislation actually a UK national on French waterways does not need one and is not going to be asked for one. Have you ever ever heard of anybody being asked to produce their CCVNI?
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You really should get your facts right. The ICC is NOT an RYA qualification, nor a UK creation although RYA qualifications allow one to apply for an ICC. The ICC is a UN sponsored certificate and the RYA is an issuing body under the authority of the UK government. It is not an english speaking qualification either as it is issued by many governments to qualified citizens. All this is explained in detail on the RYA site if you bothered to read it. The requirement for qualifications for visitors is becoming more common and the ICC is being increasingly recognised, particularly, but not exclusively, when chartering a boat. Although you may not have been asked for a licence in the past, many people have as is regularly reported on these fora by people who cruise widely.

While it is true that you do not need any licence for a sailing boat in France if you are a visitor, when in the canals you are a motor boat. The French motor boat licence includes a test of CEVNI regulations and the endorsed ICC is considered equivalent.

As ever when considering regulations in different states there is always a degree of ambiguity and conflicts - the ICC is an attempt to minimise these even if it has not become fully effective. Many people would think it sensible to avoid potential problems and follow the advice to prepare in advance, particularly as the ICC is easy to get.
 
Tranona said:
. The ICC is a UN sponsored certificate and the RYA is an issuing body under the authority of the UK government.
.
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I suspect you mean EU not UN but..........

Let me explain why i made the above statements even if I risk teaching my grandmother................

Around 50 years ago when I was crossing the channel to Cherbourg, Fecamp, Le Treport or even Boulogne or Calais, it was a big deal because GPS and chart plotters did not exist, so it all had to be done with a paper chart laying off tidal streams and deviation etc and was challenging. When you got to the 'other' side, the officials in France could not, and still cannot, get their heads around the fact British domestic craft do not have to be registered. It was necessary to have 'blue book' (part 1) registration which was/ is expensive and time consuming to acquire. (The blue book was a very beautiful document, to be treasured, but now sadly replaced by a laminated bit of A4!)

When UK boats arrived in France without the 'proper' registration papers one or two were also asked for their 'qualifications'. So 'back in the day', the RYA issued for £3, a 'certificate of competence'. (In order to get mine, my club secretary (Warsash Sailing Club) signed a paper stating I had been a member for one year and the RYA sent me an International Certificate of Competence for vessel up to I think 300 tons!!!)

The SSR was created in order to make it simple and French law changed so only French motorboat owners are now required to pass practical and paper exams.

Time moved on and the RYA expanded, and this myth of having to have an ICC if you visit a foreign country was perpetuated. Let me assure you that if you check into Sudan, Sydney, Key West or Spain they will not know what a ICC is or care. They will want to see some registration papers and the SSR will do fine. (Almost any marina you check into will want to see at least 3rd party insurance for obvious reasons.)

The CEVNI reared its head and is now a requirement for the skipper of a boat based on an inland waterway. It is not, and by international maritime law cannot be, required for skippers of boats passing though, of a different nationality. (The French will jump on you like ton of bricks if you have not paid your canals licence fees)

The ICC is a method of proving a basic level of competence if you want to charter a boat. Folks from other countries have their own national certificates and licences and not the ICC.

The RYA is in the business of making money in order to survive and pay it's way. They have cleverly linked the ICC to membership. If you want a ICC you pay less if 'join' the RYA.... A years membership with an ICC included is less expensive than just a stand alone ICC. They have further linked the CEVNI to the ICC and the only way of getting a CEVNI is as an endorsement on a ICC. This endorsement requiring an 'optional' course and an paper exam for a fee.... It is somewhat cynical but a way of raising funds...

Of course it pleased many folks to have bits of paper prooving they are 'qualified' in some way but the ICC is not a legal requirement nor is the CEVNI in the situation I have stated.

Michael
 
Paw Paw, UN not EU.

Why does your own website http://www.michaelbriant.com/uk_to_med_routes.htm state

In order to use the French, Belgium & Netherlands inland waterways legally in your boat you need two bits of official paper.​
1) ICC International Certificate of Competence - shows you know how to control your boat... (or as issued by your home country)​
2) CEVNI - endorsement (Inland waterways) Shows you know the meaning of the signs and rules on the inland waterways
​
 
Paw Paw said:
(In order to get mine, my club secretary (Warsash Sailing Club) signed a paper stating I had been a member for one year and the RYA sent me an International Certificate of Competence for vessel up to I think 300 tons!!!)
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Even this statement is incorrect: The certificate you refer to was called the 'Helmsman's Overseas Certificate of Competence' (HOCC). When the ICC was introduced, for a number of years this certificate could be 'grandfathered' into an ICC without the need to take any test.

The HOCC itself existed largely to satisfy French officials who were demanding evidence of competency even back then!
 
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