Freezing Gas

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yachtorion

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I'm preparing my boat for 4 season use. At the moment the gas locker contains Campinggaz 907 cylinders - and that's all that will fit. These are Butane only. Butane can freeze. So I'm planning to put in Gaslow Direct Fill cylinders and regulator that I can fill with a mix of propane/butane that won't freeze from a fuel station.

Assuming I find a co-operative fuel station nearby, anyone see any issues with that please?

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/epages/...Path=/Shops/cyujrhdmmu67/Categories/Cylinders
 
as NR points out, DIY filling is easy (really !), has a bit of capital outlay, but once you have bought the adapter and hose, your cost per cylinder falls to about 60%. And you can fill anything with propane (which has to wait to -40C before it freezes :) )


Some gas outlets who refill, use a mixture of propane and butane. Stay away and stick to the simple Calor propane cylinders as your source.

YOu can repaint your 907s to indicate the contents are propane but if you do, they will not be taken back. Just use a tie on label.

Are you using the new regulators BTW?
 
sarabande said:
as NR points out, DIY filling is easy (really !), has a bit of capital outlay, but once you have bought the adapter and hose, your cost per cylinder falls to about 60%. And you can fill anything with propane (which has to wait to -40C before it freezes :) )


Some gas outlets who refill, use a mixture of propane and butane. Stay away and stick to the simple Calor propane cylinders as your source.

YOu can repaint your 907s to indicate the contents are propane but if you do, they will not be taken back. Just use a tie on label.

Are you using the new regulators BTW?
Click to expand...

While I'd never ever do it myself, (or recommend others ) my friend who does reckons on less than a fiver a fill for a 907, compared to what is it now? £25/30?
 
NickRobinson said:
While I'd never ever do it myself, (or recommend others ) my friend who does reckons on less than a fiver a fill for a 907, compared to what is it now? £25/30?
Click to expand...

Just got asked for £28 from the local marina. Went up the road to a local stores, and exchanged both cylinders for Propane + a new regulator for £41.

Campinggaz is just a rip off.

Ian & Jo
 
Not sure of the equipment needed but from a technique point of view this might be useful info:-

I used to fly hot air balloons and we would refill the aluminium flight tanks from the heavy steel 47kg (we called them "one-oh-fours" in those days as they were 104lbs!). No pumping was required.

Firstly you want to be filling by decanting liquid not gas (which would take forever) so the donor cylinder needs to be inverted so the offtake is immersed in liquid. You can weigh the receiving cylinder to check when full. If progress is slow some hot water over the donor cylinder increases (significantly) the pressure of the gas above the liquid and makes the filling process much quicker.

When the fill is complete, invert the donor cylinder to the normal position so that as much liquified gas as possible in the connecting tube flows back into the donor cylinder, then turn off the valve

Nevertheless as you disconnect the two cylinders the residual gas in the transfer pipe will evaporate rapidly causing a significant venting and probably visible vapour - looks scary and of course is liable to ignition and/or flowing downhill to the lowest point of the boat/nearby drain etc.

The refill pipe we used had self seal valves at each end so you could disconnect with just a small hiss of escaping gas and then vent them somewhere a bit further away, later.
 
I would caution anyone who is unsure of themselves not to embark on filling gas tanks until they have considered every aspect of the process. The first thing that must be done is to calculate the weight of gas that the cylinder can safely contain. This is a lower amount for Propane than Butane - you can use the ratio for Calor cylinders to calculate the limit for a 907. It is lower because Propane expands more than Butane should it overheat, so will create a much higher pressure and burst the cylinder.

To measure how much gas has been transferred, the receiving cylinder must be on scales throughout the process. Measure and note the tare weight (empty) of the cylinder and also note down the maximum fill weight so as to have a ready reference and avoid confusion. The process given already will fill the cylinder although the transfer hose should either be evacuated or filled with gas before commencing so as to avoid introducing air, and therefore moisture, into the bottle.

If all the neccessary equipment is available and the location is well ventilated and secure it is no more dangerous than changing the bottle on a forklift and that's done in the middle of a workplace, but inadequate equipment makes it risky and I'd rather not do it on the boat with the risk of filling the bilges with Propane!

Rob.
 
Ok, so I know I'm being pedantic, but butane doesn't freeze at the sort of temperatures (and pressure) you are talking about. Same for propane.

What you mean is "won't boil". Butane in the bottle is a liquid. It would only freeze if the temperature dropped below -134 deg C, so not really a problem. But, its boiling point is about 0 deg C - that is what you are referring to.

And, while I'm at it (post #8), the principal reason why a gas bottle will take less mass of propane than butane is not because the former expands more, but rather that a molecule of butane weighs (approximately) 1/3 more than propane - C4H10 vs C3H8.
 
NickRobinson said:
It'll work fine, as long as your local Autogas garage lets you fill them and they fit the locker.

Buying the cylinder is a bit expensive, possibly.

Have you thought of the threads here about putting propane in your 907s?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=y...-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=4vOPVLrhNoSrae_pgrAF
Click to expand...

I got tired of Butane 907s and went to Calor Butane 4.7 bottles - They just squeezed in. Still tired with Butane not gassing in cold weather, so eventually changed to Propane 3.9Kg bottles with the new regulator. What a difference..

If you want to avoid the silly up front deposits for Calor cylinders, go to your local re-cycling centre and talk to the guys. Do not mention boats.
Make noises about camping or caravanning. Explain you don't have a cylinder and can you re-cycle one from the pile they have in the yard?
(Real re-cycling if you ask me)
I have not been refused yet.:)

And one propane bottle was half full!
 
pagoda said:
I got tired of Butane 907s and went to Calor Butane 4.7 bottles - They just squeezed in. Still tired with Butane not gassing in cold weather, so eventually changed to Propane 3.9Kg bottles with the new regulator. What a difference..

If you want to avoid the silly up front deposits for Calor cylinders, go to your local re-cycling centre and talk to the guys. Do not mention boats.
Make noises about camping or caravanning. Explain you don't have a cylinder and can you re-cycle one from the pile they have in the yard?
(Real re-cycling if you ask me)
I have not been refused yet.:)

And one propane bottle was half full!
Click to expand...

A man after my own heart; As Homer Simpson said to Bart, 'I'm going to the tip, I'll bring you back something good!' My last gem was a new NATO jerry can..:)
 
I have a system set up for decañting but yet to do it.
I have a raised bit of garden ground where I can place the inverted 19 kg bottle to transfer it to the baby calor propane which I use on the boat.
The piping consists of two propane anti clockwise threaded cylinder connector fitted with corrugated pipe tails and the two connected by a suitable length of hose(bes.co.uk)
It would be even cheaper with one of the really big bottles but harder to operate.
 
Angele said:
Ok, so I know I'm being pedantic, but butane doesn't freeze at the sort of temperatures (and pressure) you are talking about. Same for propane.

What you mean is "won't boil". Butane in the bottle is a liquid. It would only freeze if the temperature dropped below -134 deg C, so not really a problem. But, its boiling point is about 0 deg C - that is what you are referring to.

And, while I'm at it (post #8), the principal reason why a gas bottle will take less mass of propane than butane is not because the former expands more, but rather that a molecule of butane weighs (approximately) 1/3 more than propane - C4H10 vs C3H8.
Click to expand...

wow science lesson!....
why not just use regular propane and forget the complicated and potently dangerous refilling?
 
Last edited:
Niander said:
why not just use regular propane
Click to expand...
On some boats the gas locker is made to suit Campingaz 907 bottles . Calor cylinders simply do not fit. People are reluctant to modify the gas locker.

I don't understand why Campingaz is so much more expensive that calor. Does anyone have an explanation?
 
MartynG said:
On some boats the gas locker is made to suit Campingaz 907 bottles . Calor cylinders simply do not fit. People are reluctant to modify the gas locker.

I don't understand why Campingaz is so much more expensive that calor. Does anyone have an explanation?
Click to expand...

Because, as you say locker size.
Also
1/People who camp a few days in summer don't notice the cost, or even value the relative cheapness compared to disposable carts.
2/Boaters are all rich, right?
3/Less techie people than boaters don't modify equipment so are locked in.
4/History ('cos they can!)
 
Thanks folks. I'm too safety-paranoid to try and fill cylinders myself. The gaslow cylinder therefore seems like a nice safe solution, even if it is another £100 to find from somewhere...
 
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