Fractional rigs on cruising boats?

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bluedragon

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As a cruising family (now couple) we've always had our doubts about boats with fractional rigs It's always seemed easier to handle / tame a big genoa than a big unwieldy mainsail which often seems to get caught somewhere on its way up or down and just harder work all around to hoist, drop and stow.

However a few things have recently made me re-think this. In theory modern mainsail handling systems such as drop bags & lazy jacks, combined with fully battened mains and low friction mast cars, should allow the sail whizz up and down and self stow with not much effort. Also having not sailed on big boats for a few years until recently, I'd forgotten just how much sheet load there is on a big genoa!

So what's the forum's opinion? If you were buying a modern 35 footer for cruising, would a fractional rig put you off...or is it in fact better than the old masthead types and we're missing the point?
 
bluedragon said:
As a cruising family (now couple) we've always had our doubts about boats with fractional rigs It's always seemed easier to handle / tame a big genoa than a big unwieldy mainsail which often seems to get caught somewhere on its way up or down and just harder work all around to hoist, drop and stow.

However a few things have recently made me re-think this. In theory modern mainsail handling systems such as drop bags & lazy jacks, combined with fully battened mains and low friction mast cars, should allow the sail whizz up and down and self stow with not much effort. Also having not sailed on big boats for a few years until recently, I'd forgotten just how much sheet load there is on a big genoa!

So what's the forum's opinion? If you were buying a modern 35 footer for cruising, would a fractional rig put you off...or is it in fact better than the old masthead types and we're missing the point?
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Quite why manufacturers (and consumers to a point) still think that putting a giant Genoa (normally backed up with cheap blocks and undersized winches) on a boat designed to be sailed by a family is a good idea is totally beyond me. In a decent sailing breeze it tends to put most familes off tacking, let alone short tacking up a river, as you often can't get the bloody thing in before you need to tack again.

In racing circles the Genoa is dead, and noone is mourning its passing. We can only hope that as with most developments cruising trends eventually follow.
 
We had a masthead rig and enormous genoa .... try reefing ... the genoa was the powerhouse so we could sail with the main flapping - no point reefing the main then ... so furl some genoa ... yuck - crap shape and loose all drive.

Now we have a 7/8ths rig.
Smaller Genoa (actually it's probably about the same size - the rest of the boat has just got bigger!) ... now main reefing actually matters and you can control far more on the main rather than genoa - so far - vast improvement ...

Oh - btw - fractional rig - wind picks up - wind on the backstay .... flatten the main.
 
I prefer fractional rigs for the control over main shape that being able to bend the mast a little gives.
Regarding genoas, I think the point is to avoid big overlaps, how far up the forestay goes is less important. A high fraction that allows you to avoid running backstays is a good compromise.
Maybe soon we will see taller lighter carbon masts on cruisers?
The genoa may be dead, but gennakers and big kites still have their place!
 
fireball said:
We had a masthead rig and enormous genoa .... try reefing ... the genoa was the powerhouse so we could sail with the main flapping - no point reefing the main then ... so furl some genoa ... yuck - crap shape and loose all drive.

Now we have a 7/8ths rig.
Smaller Genoa (actually it's probably about the same size - the rest of the boat has just got bigger!) ... now main reefing actually matters and you can control far more on the main rather than genoa - so far - vast improvement ...

Oh - btw - fractional rig - wind picks up - wind on the backstay .... flatten the main.
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Agree, we have just gone over to a fractional rig, even SWMBO can tame the genoa which was a complete no no on our previous boat, still getting to grips with the adjustasble backstay but a much better set up IMHO of course
 
I think most of the earlier, IOR influenced, cruiser racers with large overlapping genoas would be improved by a well designed, simple, fractional rig. Many of these boats are now sailing with a inefficient furling jib which sets the equivalent of the No 2 headsail, at best; whilst still managing to be a handful in a breeze and restricting forward vision to boot.
Modern masthead designs seem generally more balanced. I would be happpy with either but would prefer the fractional for racing/inshore, the masthead for the long haul.
 
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I agree with Flaming on this, and from a cruising point of view, I think Flaming is of the racing persuasion, our last two boats going back the last 10 years have had fractional rigs. bluedragon, you are right about modern mainsail kit, ours has a stack pack with full battens, the mast cars are on ball bearings. If the conditions are a bit boisterous when approaching a berth, we turn head to wind, with the main halyard flaked down the companionway, and just drop the main into the bag, easy, just tidy up when we get safely tied up. No need for anyone to go on deck.

On the point made by Flaming about short tacking, with all the power in the main, you can roll away a bit of the genny, this makes the winding in of the sail so much easier without losing to much power.

Should just point out, its just me plus SWMBO who are usually on the boat.
 
I would guess it really depends on the type of modern 35' boat you are sailing and the type of cruising you had in mind.
For instance, Francis Chichester was in favour of lots of small sails on his circumnavigation solo, due to the fact he could manage it better on his own.
Wouldnt it depend on the strength and ability of the crew also? For a family where all are doing their bit, I would gear things light, and keep things on the small side as far as sail size is concerned with lots of choice to keep yourself entertained.
Sailing a sloop for thousands of miles with little choice in the sailbag must get a bit monotonous?
I would seriously consider a ketch... gives a lot more choice.
 
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I'm with Scotty Twister ...

This topic is like anchors, engines, GPS, ..... different camps, different bias.

I like to think that I sit in no real camp and willing to go with whatever suits the boat I'm on.

I like the Fractional rig has small sails comment ! Not all are that way. I've seen some enormous sweepers on some fractional boats, I've seen some small blade jobs as standard on masthead ... You don't have to go with what others use.
But of course mast v keel / hull position is important in this topic - which I think get's forgotten
 
flaming said:
In racing circles the Genoa is dead, and noone is mourning its passing. We can only hope that as with most developments cruising trends eventually follow.
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I'll believe that when I see cat rigged boats racing!

A fractional rigged boat without runners is not a good concept engineering wise - it's a compromise. But against that, smaller foresails on a fractional rig tend to perform better all other things being equal since roller reefed foresails get less effective very quickly and de powering the main with mast bend can be very handy.

There are fashions in racing as in everything else. Wait 10 years and we'll be back to enormous genoas and racers dissing fractional. It's happened before.
Maybe that will be with powered winches just like in the Americas cup :D
 
flaming said:
In a decent sailing breeze it tends to put most familes off tacking, let alone short tacking up a river, as you often can't get the bloody thing in before you need to tack again.
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I agree with the general sentiment in favour of 3/4 rigs and smaller genoas.
However, it doesn't need to be a strain tacking a moderate sized genny. We generally use a "no winching" tack which typically works well
* tack firmly and fast for the first part of the turn
* stop the turn with the boat above close hauled, with the genny blowing staight back down the sied
* tighten sheet by hand
* fill sail and away - if necessary one tensionig turn of the winch
Even can do this singlehanded most times - though ocasionally over do it which causes an impromptu hove to or re-tack, but still saves effort.
 
what about cutter rig?

I hate to throw in another dimension but having sailed for years on a cutter the effort needed to sheet in a genoa on a masthead sloop was a shock, this on a 27'er. On a 35'er it must be a real challenge.

Whilst its no good for racing for a cruiser the cutter rig is a great option and i'd happily go back (except that we're very happy with our Sabre 27). Not only does this mean each sail is less effort to sheet in but the options for playing with the sail plan in strong winds are an enormous advantage.

It does mean two heads'ls to get across, but often a self tacking fores'l is possible.
 
I have just fitted a new boom and main sail to my 70's quarter tonner. Its still a mast head rig but now its mainsail driven instead of the rediculous ior genoa set up. The difference is astonishing. Next boat will be mainsail driven whether its mast head or 3/4. Well shaped, modern blade headsail is a pleasure to sail with.
 
A fractional rig is infinitely superior for the simple reason that you have more strings to pull, which I find is always "A good thing" as it enable me to tell myself I am doing something important that is making my boat go faster, or more often slower.

Anybody who has ever sailed dinghies even half seriously (and I got close) is a serial tweaker of rigs for life. There is no cure, even when you over tension the backstay and bring the upper rig down on your head, you nonchalantly dismiss your incompetence by saying " I suspected there might be a weakness up there" thus confirming to lesser mortals your superior skills in the black art of rig destroying...I mean tweaking. (No I've never done that...honest)

One of the benefits of having learned to sail in an Enterprise dinghy is that it was one of the first popular dinghies with a deliberately oversized racing mainsail. If you sailed on the sea, or in my case in the windy pennines then you had to learn how to control and depower that sail, or you just ended up in the drink. My current Dehler 22 was designed for lake sailing, and it has a largish main for this reason, and I still use the dinghy techniques of plenty of kicker, lots of outhaul and cunningham to depower the sail, before I go for the first reef . It really works and its fun.

Tim
 
Thanks for the replies everybody. I must say I'm surprised by the level of support for the fractional rig! I'd expected the opposite.

PS - for the last poster, I also learned the art of sail flattening and rig tweeking on a racing Enterprise. Still took lots of dips though :)
 
I prefer fractional, but one downside is the swept back spreaders that are needed to allow the shrouds to support the forestay.
 
And another thing...

another vote for fractional, but mainly as its easier to balance the boat - holding a light tiller with no weather helm in F6 is a joy.

I can think of only one benefit of a masthead rig - supposedly stronger, and thus less risk of dismasting. As mainly a coastal sailor, thats not something I worry about.
 
Alfie168 said:
One of the benefits of having learned to sail in an Enterprise dinghy is that it was one of the first popular dinghies with a deliberately oversized racing mainsail.
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Ditto - and racing Enterprises when under weight really teaches you the benefits of tweaking the downhaul/cunningham and kicker - which in our boat was 16:1 ratio and led back to the helm, when the kicker was adjusted incessantly in every gust and lull.

I found the Westerly Fulmar great fun with its fast 3/4 rig, and sailed it like an Enterprise when powered up on a reach, playing the kicker and mainsheet constantly.
 
bluedragon said:
f you were buying a modern 35 footer for cruising, would a fractional rig put you off...or is it in fact better than the old masthead types and we're missing the point?
Click to expand...

Fractional with code zero would be my choice. Much easier to tack upwind than with a big overlapping jib, and great in light air.
 
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