Four Winns, Glastron, Carver have gone into Ch 11!

Nautorius

Nautorius

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Genmar has been sunk by the lack of credit facilities. Brands include Glastron, Four Winns, Carver, Wellcraft and Marquis Yachts.

Into Chapter 11 so not dead yet but a few iconic brands may go. Bad news I think as they had been improving quality across most of their ranges. Hope the Brands exported to UK and Europe survive like Glastron and Fourwinns.

Sad news, no doubt more companies to follow. Do not want to lose choice by having less brands and hope Brunswick are in better shape.

More details HERE on YBW!

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I think this will happen in Europe too. FWIW, a broker I spoke to the other day reckons that the 4 major UK builders will be 2 within 5 years thru failure or acquisition. There will be a lot of rationalisation in the boat building industry in the next few years
 
sorry to hear in many ways as this sort of news effects those employed so terribly......
......But if it means no more Carver Mariners will be produced.... it may be worth the sacrifice....?

2007-carver-36-mariner-8_460x0w.jpg
 
The "FWIW" was very much needed, imho. First, an acquistion doesn't count as a failure in any rational book. Second, the big four could, at a stretch, become 3 if Sealine were to end but I very much doubt that'll happen. But that's as far as it would go: Prin/FL/S'seeker will not be "failing" anytime soon :-)
 
I thought that might wake you up /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I don't remember saying that acquisition is equivalent to failure. In fact I didn't say that but we all know that failing companies might be acquired just prior to going bust. I'm not saying that any of the big 4 UK boat builders are failing but the size of the global new boat market is much smaller than it was 2 yrs ago and is likely to improve only slowly and without doubt, some production rationalisation will have to take place. Will 4 large independently owned UK motorboat builders exist as they are now in 5 yrs time? Maybe the brands will still exist but I very much doubt that all the factories will
 
Sorry, you're right, you didn't say that (and anyway you were only reporting what the broker said). What I meant (but failed to type!) was that saying "4 will become 2" in some kind of doomsday predicting manner is nonsense if the movement from 4 to 2 was thru acquisition. The businesses still exist, so what does it matter who owns them? Were there only the big 3 in the UK when Graam Beck owned both Prin and FL3 years ago? -of course not!

Ref "some production rationalisation will have to take place. Will 4 large independently owned UK motorboat builders exist as they are now in 5 yrs time? Maybe the brands will still exist but I very much doubt that all the factories will ", the production cutback has already happened; there isn't much more medicine to be taken. I think the big 4 will exist but almost certainly not as they do now. FL will surely have different ownership. I might put a longshot bet on Ferretti owning it :-)

Right, back to sleep ere /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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FL will surely have different ownership. I might put a longshot bet on Ferretti owning

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Dare I suggest that ......XXXXXXX ... no , I wont bother ! It will be in all the mags next month if you predict it!

Who owns Sealine anyway ? If we want to talk about brands / companies, they will be managed to fit the buying market. It is the way of our world. At the end of the day you are either buying Brand Presence, under-valued Assets or Capability .... any brave soul want to suggest how current UK manufacturers fit into those 'pigeon-holes'?
 
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FL will surely have different ownership. I might put a longshot bet on Ferretti owning it :-)

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I might put an even longer shot bet and that would be an Asian or Chinese co buying it for the brand
 
I dont agree about this that the market will get smaller in the long run, I think some builders production numbers will decrease but the brands with caution in the balance sheet and production numbers versus the demand can survive this one and come out better off
surely a recession is here and a UK Brit builder was saved mostly by the cheap £ versus the EURO then anything else
but does that mean these would have vanished... really I dont think so as I am sure a buyer would have come up and saved the day or the nite for them
 
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FL will surely have different ownership. I might put a longshot bet on Ferretti owning it :-)

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I might put an even longer shot bet and that would be an Asian or Chinese co buying it for the brand

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I think Ferretti is not in a position for this having the rumours started to surface that may be they solved the Aprea and Itama problem and these will remain in the Group
next investment for Ferretti I am sure will be more a couple marinas following the Azimut strategy in order to generate easy cash flow all the year round and to handle this difficult moment
another reason why I think Ferretti want bother with Fairline is that its range most specially the Squadron series clashes with the Ferretti Yachts Brand
the Targa does not clash much with the Pershing altough they do steal clients to each other, and the Phantom with its current range has the 40, no 40 feet flybridge for Fer so far altough dealers are pushing for something smaller to the 470 and the 48 Phantom clashes with the 470
there is also a rumour that Brunswick offered Hatteras to Azimut but the Italian Group asked for a hold waiting for a better economics cycle but really i for this I found noting so may is just marina talk /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Unless we borrow or blow ourselves into oblivion, the future is contract manufacturing.

Brands will design and develop, then pass on to contract manufacturers. Happened with cellphones, playstations etc. Next is cars.

Boats will take a while, but I see it happening.
 
The £ is starting to rise against the € and the Brit builders will soon lose any currency advantage that they had, maybe by next year. If you think that global boat sales are directly related to the global economy, then it will be many years before the size of the global economy will be at the same level as 2007/8. Then consider where the main boat sales markets are for the European and US boat builders; those are the USA and Canada, Europe and the Middle East. These are exactly the areas which have been hit the hardest by the recession and those areas which are still exhibiting economic growth eg China have their own indigenous boat manufacturers. Then consider that the availability of finance will probably never be as widespread in the future as it has been for the last 10 years and, in the longer term, there will be increasing enviromental regulations/taxes and rising oil prices
Don't forget that a new boat is an entirely discretionary purchase. Nobody needs a boat like they need a car or a washing machine or a TV. I don't want to be unduly pessimistic but I wouldn't be surprised if sales of new motor boats never recovered to the levels seen in 2007/8. The only way for mainstream boat builders to get back to these sales levels is to innovate radically different craft that cost less to buy and are far more fuel efficient. All in IMHO
 
"another reason why I think Ferretti w[o]nt bother with Fairline is that its range most specially the Squadron series clashes with the Ferretti Yachts Brand, the Targa does not clash much with the Pershing altough they do steal clients to each other, and the ... 48 Phantom clashes with the 470"

Such clashes are definitely not a reason not to buy the company PY. This is self evident and needs no explanation, but there are zillions of examples, eg Graham Beck bought both Prin and FL - very clashing ranges - and together they proved probably the best investments of his life. I've lost track of the numbers but he must have made around £200m real cash return return over 10years on a small investment
 
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The "FWIW" was very much needed, imho. First, an acquistion doesn't count as a failure in any rational book. Second, the big four could, at a stretch, become 3 if Sealine were to end but I very much doubt that'll happen. But that's as far as it would go: Prin/FL/S'seeker will not be "failing" anytime soon :-)

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Out of interest, what makes you think Sealine won't end?

Sealine were running steadily worsening figures year on year and finally dipped into the red before the recession started!

If that was the way they were going before the recession, what state must they be in now?

They're owned by Brunswick, who have plenty problems of their own.

They no longer own their dealers so are no longer able to pull the old "overpay for the p/x but have plenty of profit to fund it anyway" trick that they used to do so well.

They've halved their workforce in the last 12 months.

They weren't at the London Boatshow (this a company that always has bold claims for boatshow sales, so presumably have lost a lot of those sales too).

They're coming out with some very brave and interesting boats now as opposed to making second division versions of what everyone else was doing, and that must be helping them, but even there the new boats are very opinion dividing.

I seriously do hope they do pull through, but as i say, it wasn't looking too clever before the recession and (apart from possibly the radical new design direction, if you see that as a positive, I hope it is but have no idea) all the news since has not been great.
 
true but so far the strategy of Ferretti have always been to buy different brands, and when they bought Mochi which was doing what they do with Ferretti and was also the closest competitor at the time, they sold the molds to Dominator and created a different brand with Mochi i.e traditional lobster yachts
 
If I remember correctly, Sealine were the first to downsize, and in taking early and significant action have hopefully got a business the right size for future. IMO the risk for them is if Brunswick go bust; and given that Genmar are in CH11 maybe this is not all that far fetched as they surely must be suffering just as badly?? If this were to happen, presumably this would mean that Sealine itself could be put up for sale....
 
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