Forestay and baby stay tension

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crown22

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Hello
New to me sailing boat has had the mast re-stepped very quickly by the boatyard.At present the baby stay which goes about four fifths up the mast is bar tight almost but the main forestay is slack with about an inch or two of movement half way up.
Should the forestay have less movement in it than the babystay?Thanks
 
The two stays do different things. suggest you slacken off the babystay, tension the forestay by by adjusting the backstay. The babystay and the aft lower shrouds should then be tensioned so that the mast is straight with no bend in the middle.

You will find more detail on setting up your rigging on the Selden website.
 
Do you actually need the babystay? Most boats only have them if an owner has retro fitted them. If you are not going to use it you could remove it and that will make it easier to tack the overlapping headsail. If it is for a storm jib, then the best idea is to fit a Highfield lever and secure the stay near the base of the mast when not in use. If it is a retro-fit item its a good idea to check that whoever fitted it put an adequate backing plate under the deck fitting.
 
A lot going to depend on your boat and if a head sail furler or hank on jib , if you need any rake or bend .
I would start with slacking off all the screw and get your mast up right and in the middle , then if it's isn't a racer I would tighten up each one counting the thread until your happy it's tight enough , then take it out in about 10 knot first on one tack then the other , if you find there any slackness take up a couple of turns , go on the other tack and do the same again .
There other ways like measuring your shrouds about 1 meter and it measuring the distance, from the bottle screw or you go to the expense of buying springs or pay a rigger to do it for you , but what ever way you do it you have to start with getting the mast straight and in the centre.
 
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Norman_E said:
Do you actually need the babystay? Most boats only have them if an owner has retro fitted them. If you are not going to use it you could remove it and that will make it easier to tack the overlapping headsail. If it is for a storm jib, then the best idea is to fit a Highfield lever and secure the stay near the base of the mast when not in use. If it is a retro-fit item its a good idea to check that whoever fitted it put an adequate backing plate under the deck fitting.
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Norman I may be wrong I think your taking about inerforstay and the op baby stays
 
crown22 said:
Hello
New to me sailing boat has had the mast re-stepped very quickly by the boatyard.At present the baby stay which goes about four fifths up the mast is bar tight almost but the main forestay is slack with about an inch or two of movement half way up.
Should the forestay have less movement in it than the babystay?Thanks
Click to expand...

Colvic Sailer 26 ???

If so I dont think it originally had an inner forestay or a baby stay. If it has cap shrouds and two pairs of lower shrouds ( fore and aft of the cap shrouds ) then it is almost certainly something added.
Set the mast up tensioning these following the Selden guide and setting the required mast rake ( zero ...???) using the forestay adjustment . Tension the forestay with the backstay .

( with caps and aft lowers only a baby stay should be tensioned to give a little curvature to the mast ... if possible)
 
Rig tensioning or tuning is a bit of a black art. The Selden guide is a good starting point but only covers the basics and doesn't do ketch rigs at all if they have a triatic otherwise treat main and mizzen as completely separate. Some of the recommended tensions are scarily high for an old boat.
I find the simple method described on "Cox engineering" website (now renamed) is easier to follow.
 
I wouldn't want to sail a boat where the mast wasn't properly controlled in the centre. The baby stay failed one our one-time Sadler 29 after some years and I got the impression that it was doing quite a lot of work. Fortunately, it gave some warning by partly unravelling before failing completely..
 
Googling the images seems like some have fore and aft lower shrounds and some have just aft and a babystay.

So, to the OP check which you have. If you only have aft lowers then the babystay is essential. However it is unlikely to be fitted if you have F&A shrouds.
 
Tranona said:
Googling the images seems like some have fore and aft lower shrounds and some have just aft and a babystay.

So, to the OP check which you have. If you only have aft lowers then the babystay is essential. However it is unlikely to be fitted if you have F&A shrouds.
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You have obviously Googled more thoroughly that I did , but a baby stay will only come from the same height as the lowers / spreaders won't it? The OP says the stay in question is from 4/5 the height of the mast.

I wonder if there is a halyard exit or fitting for one at that height. If there is it might give a clue about its intended use.
 
As said a inner fore stay 4/5 way up the mast is most likely a stay to carry a small storm jib and as such is usually disconnected to give freedom of moving the jib across when tacking. An inner fore stay will usually be from the centre of the mast or centre of the distance between fore stay and base. Now a mast generally needs to be supported in the middle both sideways and fore and aft. Usually there will be intermediate side stays attached aft of the mast so they support the mast sideways but also pull the middle back. A baby or inner forestay from the same point will pull the middle forward. Or alternatively 2 stays pulling from forward of the mast will do the same job.
An alternative often seen on fractional rig boats is to have the spreaders swing aft from abeam to meet cap shrouds which have chain plates aft of the aft. So the spreaders lean on or are pushed by the cap shroud to push the middle of the mast forward. Needs robust stiff spreaders.
All this for a mast which needs support in the middle. If the mast has a large dimension in the fore and aft direction it may be stiff enough to not need middle forward support. As usually seen in racing dinghies.
For the OP a baby fore stay attached 4/5 way up the mast will put a lot of load on that section of the mast not other wise supported. ie it will bend the mast from the attachment point forward. Mast may be considered stiff enough but generally
it is desirable to support the mast at that point backwards and sideways. Often by running back stays. Hence for storm conditions you may set up a fore stay at 4/5 height and then set up running back stays to support it. The loads being large with a storm jib attached.
Much more common is the middle inner fore stay which as said is set up in tension to make the mast straight or slightly middle forward bend. (in conjunction with the intermediate stays. Often the inner fore stay is made adjustable by tackle or handle on a turn screw so that more mast bend can be applied in stronger winds to flatten the main sail in conjunction with adjustable back stay. olewill
 
Thanks Guys for the information.My concern was that the boatyard may not have attached the forestay close enough to the deck and that there would not be enough adjustment on the backstay.The baby stay should not be that tight because everybody seems to agree that it's main function is to fit a storm jib to?Yes it's a Colvic Sailor 26 and the babystay was probably a retro fit so I will try to check suitability of the backing plate.Will release tension on the babystay slowly and take up the backstay until full adjustment is used.If the forestay is still slack at that point I guess my concern about the forestay not being close enough to the deck may be correct?Hoping to avoid the mast having to be supported by a strop while the forestay is disconnected and re-positioned if this turns out to be necessary.
 
crown22 said:
Thanks Guys for the information.My concern was that the boatyard may not have attached the forestay close enough to the deck and that there would not be enough adjustment on the backstay.The baby stay should not be that tight because everybody seems to agree that it's main function is to fit a storm jib to?Yes it's a Colvic Sailor 26 and the babystay was probably a retro fit so I will try to check suitability of the backing plate.Will release tension on the babystay slowly and take up the backstay until full adjustment is used.If the forestay is still slack at that point I guess my concern about the forestay not being close enough to the deck may be correct?Hoping to avoid the mast having to be supported by a strop while the forestay is disconnected and re-positioned if this turns out to be necessary.
Click to expand...

if you relieve the tension on the back stay your shrouds will support the mast while you work on the forestay ( assuming you do have fore and aft lowers ). A halyard down to something secure eg mooring cleat will make doubly sure as will the inner forestay.
 
You don't say where and how the inner stay (is is not a baby stay from the way you have described it). Normally an inner stay for a storm jib is mounted to the deck aft of the forestay, often some way back to pick up on a bulkhead and attached with a lever so that it can be removed when not in use. It is usually then brought back to the mast or a shroud. The orestay needs to be tight independent of an inner stay. If you do not have a storm jib you can remove this inner stay completely.

Most Colvics I have seen in images have forward and aft lower shrouds so do not need a baby stay.
 
Hello Guys two pictures attached.Am waiting for the boatyard people to come on board to shorten my floppy forestay. In the meantime I have tied the headsail halyard to the pulpit as extra backup.I am hoping that they will either find some extra adjustment inside the furling drum or will cut and shorten the attaching plate with holes in (does this have a name?) Don't want to do the job myself in case the mast comes down on top of me or my neighbour's boat!stay.jpg
 
crown22 said:
Hello Guys two pictures attached.Am waiting for the boatyard people to come on board to shorten my floppy forestay. In the meantime I have tied the headsail halyard to the pulpit as extra backup.I am hoping that they will either find some extra adjustment inside the furling drum or will cut and shorten the attaching plate with holes in (does this have a name?) Don't want to do the job myself in case the mast comes down on top of me or my neighbour's boat!View attachment 72105
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It is, I notice, a Plastimo furler

They are supplied with a choice of two length of "side plares" ( IIRC 5 hole or 11 hole) The longer version is designed to fit around an existing bottle screw. The shorter version is designed to fit when there is no bottle screw on the forestay.


The length of the side plates as such do do adjust the forestay tension they only only set the height of the drum above the stem head fitting.

You appear to have a collection of shackles on the forestay. Not good! Toggles should be used when necessary to extend the stay and to provide articulation.

However if the collection shackles cannot be replaced with a bottle screw, ( hopefully there are not that many up inside the drum), the simple solution will probably be to reduce the number of shackles ( and replace those that remain with toggles) and shorten the side plates by a few holes

Plastimo gear is designed to be easily fitted DIY and there is no reason why you could not easily sort this out yourself with some basic hand tools ( Small adjustable spanner, pair of pliers and a hacksaw probably all you'd need)

I have to say that Plastimo gear is fitted in a variety of, often ghastly, ways by people who dont seem to be able to read the instructions. I once went round the boat yard photographing some of the results. Not many were fitted exactly as per the instructions. Some were terrible. Yours may not be the worst I have seen but is is pretty poor !

If you do get the boat yard rigger to sort it out photograph the results and post the photo.
 
That inner forestay is removable by unclipping the lever. It is totally unnecessary on the boat. It was probably installed by an owner who had dreams of sailing oceans and wanted the ability to both use a storm job orfly twin sails downwind. Neither of those particularly valuable on the lake, nor indeed common set ups for coastal sailing. so, once you get the forestay sorted out suggest you release it and stow it at the mast then consider removing it completely.

It will however support the mast completely and you could remove the forestay safely to sort out the bottom end fixings as Vic suggests.
 
VicS said:
It is, I notice, a Plastimo furler

They are supplied with a choice of two length of "side plares" ( IIRC 5 hole or 11 hole) The longer version is designed to fit around an existing bottle screw. The shorter version is designed to fit when there is no bottle screw on the forestay.


The length of the side plates as such do do adjust the forestay tension they only only set the height of the drum above the stem head fitting.

You appear to have a collection of shackles on the forestay. Not good! Toggles should be used when necessary to extend the stay and to provide articulation.

However if the collection shackles cannot be replaced with a bottle screw, ( hopefully there are not that many up inside the drum), the simple solution will probably be to reduce the number of shackles ( and replace those that remain with toggles) and shorten the side plates by a few holes

Plastimo gear is designed to be easily fitted DIY and there is no reason why you could not easily sort this out yourself with some basic hand tools ( Small adjustable spanner, pair of pliers and a hacksaw probably all you'd need)

I have to say that Plastimo gear is fitted in a variety of, often ghastly, ways by people who dont seem to be able to read the instructions. I once went round the boat yard photographing some of the results. Not many were fitted exactly as per the instructions. Some were terrible. Yours may not be the worst I have seen but is is pretty poor !

If you do get the boat yard rigger to sort it out photograph the results and post the photo.
Click to expand...

If you do dismantle the furling gear, put silicone, or better still use an isolating paste e.g. Duralac, Tefgel or Lanocote when replacing, to ensure the stainless screws don't sieze in the aluminium parts.
 
Tranona said:
That inner forestay is removable by unclipping the lever. It is totally unnecessary on the boat. It was probably installed by an owner who had dreams of sailing oceans and wanted the ability to both use a storm job orfly twin sails downwind. Neither of those particularly valuable on the lake, nor indeed common set ups for coastal sailing. so, once you get the forestay sorted out suggest you release it and stow it at the mast then consider removing it completely.

It will however support the mast completely and you could remove the forestay safely to sort out the bottom end fixings as Vic suggests.
Click to expand...

Go Tranona! I knew someone would get to the bottom of it in the end:)
 
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