force X gusting Y.. aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

..

So the real answer to this is that the Beufort scale is not suitable for Inshore waters forecasts...

for the following reasons...

A) Forecasting has evolved so that we can now more accuratly predict wind speeds.
B) Local conditions will vary to such an extent that the Sea State definitions may or may not be accurate.
C) Modern yacht wind instruments do not measure wind in "Forces".

I mean, how usefull is a Force 8 forecast for a 6 hour period in the Solent or Clyde when the sea state will never reflect that forecast?
 
Hi PD
Not really.. but you have a fair point.. depending on direction, a wind of force 8 in carrick roads or the solent may well be an enjoyable sail, the same would not be said mid channel, or in the western approaches due to the radically different sea state.
Other inshore waters are also often very exposed.. add to that wind over tide and you could be in a far more serious predicament 'inshore' than offshore.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The velocity equivalents given in the table are based on the empirical relationship between estimated number and measured velocity, V = 1.87 Ö B3, where V is in miles per hour, and B is the corresponding Beaufort number. The pressure equivalents are derived from the relationship p = 0.003V2, where p is in pounds per square foot and V is in miles per hour [Meteorological Office, 1963].

The gust speeds in the table above have been estimated by multiplying wind speeds by 1.25; i.e. it is assumed that the Beaufort wind speed are sustained 1-minute wind speeds. The multiplication factor is from Lander and Guard [1991].

The mean wind speeds given here are the same as those in Munich Re (1988, p53) though the latter are stated to be for a height of 10m above the surface. The wind speeds given in UNDRO (1991, p47) are lower then the mean wind speeds given here, but the Specifications are the same!

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst I agree with everything you say here - how could I not? It's correct - for once I agree with "dumbing down".
If F6 gusting F8, makes it clear to the average sailor that he's quite likely to encounter windspeeds in the 22-27kts region; it also points out that he may encounter windspeeds up to 34-40kts. Once you're in such conditions, whether it's a 10kts or a 15kts gust is slightly academic.

I feel that this thread borders on the pedantic/anal. Virtually on a par with "flag etiquette" posts.
 
there is no accepted forecast of x gusting y... by any professional meteological body. So it WONT be clear to the 'average' sailor.

It is a term used more by people who see a peak on a windspeed indicator and quote it to others as to the sea condition they were out in, or more dangerously, convince themsleves that they have been in such condtions.
If YOU find it anal or pedantic, dont read it..
 
I dont even think that this is "Dumbing Down" as Guapa says, actually I think that this is "Smartening Up", as it reflects the better forecasting abilities that we now have, and presents this in a format which is easily understood by the leisure sailor...... the site which you refered to as a "Toy" actually to me is far more usefull than the met office forecast, as it tends to break the weather into smaller windows and presents more specific information.... And I have found after using it, has been very good for accuracy.. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif


And is there any harm in letting the weekend sailor go back to the bar and tell his tall stories about being out in Force 10 winds with the waves as big as houses?? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Certainly the worst conditions I have seen in the SW have been f5 (or was that 6 or 7?) at start point in wind against in a spring!

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
1. Accepted forecasts & professional meteorological body - forecasts are not for them, they're for people out at sea (or contemplating going out).
2. Fishermen & sailors lie - if not about the size of the fish they caught, it's about the height of the waves & the strength of the wind.
3. If people take the peak of a windgust as an indicator on the Beaufort scale of the conditions they were out in; they're idiots.
But there's no point getting worked up about it.
 
Why overcomplicate the issue? Forecasting, particularly on our western seaboards can never be terribly accurate, so there is nothing wrong with the Beaufort scale as a prediction of a range of windspeeds - it doesn't take much imagination to realise that, for a yacht, a F6 westerly west of Ardnamurchan is a more serious proposition than it would be in the Lynn of Lorne because of the varying sea states. That's just an obvious factor that any skipper and crew would make allowance for. Either way, it is safe to assume that there could be gusts easily into the mid 30s.

As for the onboard wind instruments, I don't understand your point. Most, certainly ours, can measure in kts, k/h, and m/s. We keep ours in knots so that if we're tacking into wind we'll think of reducing sail at 18-20 kts apparent, and definitely reduce at 20-22kts apparent (I know, I know, you should reduce sail when you first think of it....). That's a matter of personal preference and the capability of the boat. But that's no reason for not using the Beaufort scale for forecasts.

As for "Force 8 forecast for a 6 hour period in the Solent or Clyde when the sea state will never reflect that forecast?", fair enough, but most sailors understand that the sea state will vary according to exposure, so you make allowance for that. For yachts on the Clyde, an 8 could mean possibly being unable to get safe access to some harbours.
 
Hi Guapa
Please explain 1. of your above post ?

the other points I fully accept.. but it should not apply to yacht magazine editors...

ANYONE who takes a peak as the actual is crazy, but, unfortuantely it is all too common.

I dont even have or use an electronic windspeed indicator, it tells me nothing useful.
 
I have no wind speed instruments, (my sailing is almost '60s style) I usually judge conditions by the sea state (white horses = 4/5 round my way) or by how the boat leans.

Over F5 it isn't worth going out as, in constricted waters, with mostly lee shores & drying harbours it ceases to be what I (& my family) call enjoyable. OK so I may get caught, so be it, I will reef down & seek shelter. Stuff over 8 is academic unless you are in the habit of long passages, which I am not. Should I get caught I would furl all sails & motor to safety! Last time I was in a forecast 8, I was anchored off Moelfre for the Royal review. I upped anchor & motored into the Straits for better shelter.

Now, none of the above estimates are accurate or "correct" but I suspect it is how the majority of family Yotties view forecasts. Bragging rights tend to be something completely different and I always apply the same quantity of salt as I do to other pub & clubhouse tales. Perhaps you can now understand why Guapa unkindly suggested that you might be being a tad "anal".
 
I agree with Captainslarty about the terminology in forecasts but when reporting weather as experienced - particularly when you are trying to give a realistic and meaningful describtion of a passage you have just completed, the phrases 'gusting FX or, gusts of XX knots, are clear and well understood by anyone who has done any sailing.

In forecasting it is very difficult to predict the strength of gusts since they are, by their nature, ephemeral and unpredicatable, and so any attempt to quantify them would be meaningless and misleading.

However, there are weather conditions in which strong gusts can be predicted and others in which it is clear the wind speed and direction is likely to be stable. A hint as to which of these conditions could be expected, would be useful.

In short, I have absolutely no problem with reporting conditions as Force 4 with gusts of Force 6 or gusting to 25 knots.

And in a cat, the strength of gusts is crucial and the person who said wind can't kill hasn't sailed a cat.
 
Have not read the full thread above, but visited shetland last summer from Norway. Was a bit confused when listening to "force 5 occasionally 6 " all the time. That is quite a windspeed range.
Why not use the more "accurate" meter pr sec. ? :::)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Captainslarty about the terminology in forecasts but when reporting weather as experienced - particularly when you are trying to give a realistic and meaningful describtion of a passage you have just completed, the phrases 'gusting FX or, gusts of XX knots, are clear and well understood by anyone who has done any sailing.

In forecasting it is very difficult to predict the strength of gusts since they are, by their nature, ephemeral and unpredicatable, and so any attempt to quantify them would be meaningless and misleading.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is NOT difficult to predict the strength of gusts Sir.. it is all covered in Beaufort.... it is NOT misleading.. and it is quantified. The terms Gusting etc are a misnomer, a recent one too, and misleading.. if you say gusting to 35 knots, fair, but NOT to force x y or z... the new sailor can take this as gospel.. I can cope with that.. no.... why use the terms wrongly.. if you must quote gusts (and why not ?) then quote gusts.. not beaufort...

[ QUOTE ]
However, there are weather conditions in which strong gusts can be predicted and others in which it is clear the wind speed and direction is likely to be stable. A hint as to which of these conditions could be expected, would be useful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, agreed, it is usually called frontal conditions.....

[ QUOTE ]
In short, I have absolutely no problem with reporting conditions as Force 4 with gusts of Force 6 or gusting to 25 knots.

And in a cat, the strength of gusts is crucial and the person who said wind can't kill hasn't sailed a cat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said wind cant kill and I stick by it... /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I also, I must admit, referred to your blog in my original post as I think you aid and abett this misnomer.....

You (IPC) are cultivating a wrong approach to weather understanding IMHO... and using it to the advantage of sales of boats of marginal performance attributes. The LEAST you could do is treat a respected scale of conditions with the respect it actually deserves... Why re-invent the wheel ??... I respectfully submit that you are misleading the newer sailors dangerously.. You are changing something that is established and indeed understood, or should be, by the 'normal' sailor..

The education on weather is minimal by your publication, indeed, you have no direct responsibily to do such.. the same is true of the rya and similar.. get them out get the money.... but weather is oft the crux of all SAFE sailing.

Please be more respectful of the terms.

Joe.
 
Quote.
Have not read the full thread above, but visited shetland last summer from Norway. Was a bit confused when listening to "force 5 occasionally 6 " all the time. That is quite a windspeed range. Why not use the more "accurate" meter pr sec. ? :::)

....................................................................................
Sorry to hear that you were confused. Hope you wont mind if I attempt to clarify this.
M.p/s is very exact, it is what it says it is. Actual weather is never static but varies by the minute so M.p/s is no good simply because it is too accurate. The forecast is for a 24 hour period and if they say that the weather will be F8, becoming F9 later what this means is that during the first 12 hours of the forecast period the wind speed will be between 34 and 40 knots and the gusts will be between 43 and 51.During the second half of the period ( after the first 12 hours) the wind speed will be between 41 and 47 knots with gusts of between 52 and 60 knots. With the example you gave the word used was occasionally which means just that. Occasionallyduring the forecast period the wind will be...etc so if you see a gust which tips the wind speed thingy to 58 knots, you are still only in a F9.
Hope this helps
 
Sorry old chum, cannot get the point of this at all. Have been using these terms for too many years to change and never had a problem!
You say potatos and I say potatos!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry old chum, cannot get the point of this at all. Have been using these terms for too many years to change and never had a problem!
You say potatos and I say potatos!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree! To me it's perfectly sensible AND understandable to talk of F4-5 gusting 6, and as I and my crews have used this format and know what WE mean, for the last 35 years, I think we'll stick with it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What the hell it's got to do with 'boasting in the bar, beats me. Interesting to see how excited some people get aboout this sort of trivia though!! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Quote.
To me it's perfectly sensible AND understandable to talk of F4-5 gusting 6, and as I and my crews have used this format and know what WE mean, for the last 35 years, I think we'll stick with it.
.......................................................................................

Good for you, stick with it. Why change what works for you.
I think the point of the original post was that by stating for example F8 you are not just being told the wind parameters (34/40) but also the gust potential (43/51) which is above the parameters of F9 (41/47) so to add gusting is unnecessary as F8 is gusting in excess of the F9 mean.
 
I know what your saying. It amuses me to hear people relating tales of having battled through force 9s etc when in reality it was probably a 6 or 7 with some stronger gusts , it could cause the inexperienced to think a force 9 is no big deal.

This line I just copied from the MCA press release about the "Ice Princess "

[ QUOTE ]
The sea state locally is reported to be a five metre swell with winds gusting to force 8.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah well we arent going to change the world...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top