For Anyone with New Volvo D6s

[Andrew38]

The twin D6 370's in my Beneteau Monte Carlo have done around 50+ hours now and there has been a lot of confusion about the mandatory First Service Inspection. In the Operator's Manual it states it should be done at 50-100 hours and lists inspections only. On approaching three dealers they have told me categorically that on Volvo's protocol the FSI must be done at 25-50 hours and that both oil and all filters had to be changed (the oil for one hour engine is about £100!). I even managed to speak to a service engineer at Volvo Penta Watford and he told me that I should have the FSI done now, including changing oil & filters and then have a full service before the winter lay up which would require them all to be replaced again - after a couple of months service!

However a keen & caring Parts Manager at my local VP dealer, Felton in Brighton, decided that the whole thing did not make sense and he spent a serious amount of time researching on my behalf. The result is that he has found a service update from Volvo confirming that the Operator's Manual is correct and that the dealers are out of date. Result a bill for £176 (inc Vat) instead of, I guess, £600-800.

Hopefully this might help someone else who has bought a new boat powered by Volvo D4's or D6's.

 

[spannerman]

Call me biased seeing as I work for a VP dealer, but ever since engines were invented its been standard practice to change the oil and filter at a very early stage in the engines life, this is not to generate income but because all the moving parts in a new engine have never met before and during the first several hours of operation they bed in and a certain amount of microscopic swarf will be generated even though todays production machining is much superior, its for this reason that the oil and filter which catches it is changed.
I know I'd have it done for sure if I had invested in an engine that cost more than most family cars.IMHO

 

[rubberduck]

Call me biased seeing as I work for a VP dealer, but ever since engines were invented its been standard practice to change the oil and filter at a very early stage in the engines life, this is not to generate income but because all the moving parts in a new engine have never met before and during the first several hours of operation they bed in and a certain amount of microscopic swarf will be generated even though todays production machining is much superior, its for this reason that the oil and filter which catches it is changed.
I know I'd have it done for sure if I had invested in an engine that cost more than most family cars.IMHO

Agreed, & thats exactly what I did, not worth penny pinching on such expensive toys.

 

[oldgit]

That is one pampered engine,compared with......

Wifes Audi A1.1,6 D..........First service oil change 19K miles or 2 years.

 

[jfm]

+1
I had the oil changed in my Cat C32s at about 80 hours, and my local Cat dealer strongly approved, even though the service manual says you can leave it till up to 250 hours if you wish

 

[Andrew38]

Yes but would you guys have changed the oil & filters again when the boat was laid up for the winter?

The point I had hoped I was making is that if you followed VP dealer guidance you'd change oil & filters at First Service Inspection and then again a few weeks later when the boat is laid up! I plan to change oil & filters as part of a full engine & sterndrive service in October at which point the engines will have done at best 80 hours.

 

[Latestarter1]

Here I go swimming against the tide again!

Volvo FSI is a complete nonsense, does not apply to US Warranty statement as market would not accept it. Pure revenue generation for dealers who from OP's research it not properly understood by VP network.

No engine has ever suffered from having lube chaged too frequently, however this is a perception not a reality thing. Modern engines are built to very tight tolerances which is why running in and running in oils are no longer even thought about. Small engines are no longer dyno tested and a mid range engine (circa 1lt/cyl) have an end of line test which lasts a matter minutes. There is certainly no bedding of bearings in early life, just stabilising of blow by.

Consider this; new Gulf crew boat with 4x50 liter V16's goes into service at $7,000/day charter rate, or big face shovel with 2x38 liter V12's on $5,000/day in open cast coal mine. Can you imagine impact to crew change shedules and downtime penalties if these engines were pulled out of service for maintainence before say 250 hours has elapsed, cannot, and does not happen.

Nobody can be wrong by being over protective of their engines, however I think OP needs to be congratulated for taking on the VP system.

Think I mentioned it before, we had a junior engineer who in a fit of depression take a crankcase door off mid Pacific and jump inside. Chief was furious, he had the lowest operating costs in the fleet until we were ordered to re-bunker lube oil in Panama. Chiefie was forever moaning and saying 'why could't he just go over the wall like any normal person'.

 

[wakeywake]

Very interesting thread. I too have a boat which has a pair of Volvo D6's in it and the owners manual states that a service is due between 50-100 hours. That service is documented as being quite small and therefore a simple job to undertake.

However, the local volvo dealer has indicated it's a lot more involved including draining the oil from the IPS units along with a whole load of other work. Even gone as far as saying that the boat will need lifting.

We've got 45 operating hours so far, and don't mind which way to approach the service but the contention between the dealers view and the volvo manual was confusing.

It seems reasonable to me to do something at 50 hours, as this gets an extended warranty activated at no cost. Given I think the next service is due at around 100 hours, and certainly will be done around that time, its does seem to be over-cooking things doing the same again now.

Time to call Volvo UK for clarity I think then get them to talk to their dealer.

Steven

 

[Andrew38]

I've sent a PM to you

 

[SolentPhill]

Not sure it's a Volvo issue as any engine is the same as mentioned above, new metal to new metal, the outcome is bits and surely these bits need to be got rid of as soon as possible, so engine manufacturers suggest you get rid of this, after it's done a small amount of bedding in. Engine manufacturers dont make oil so they wont gain anything if you change or you dont change.

There is another idea and that is not to change the oil leave the bits in there and save the money, but you have to live with the fact that these bits are being pumped around your engine, if you end and I don't mean you, but anyone ends up with a scratched bore, and a smokey engine you won't be surprised to hear Volvo say they are not interested. All being well the filters will do their job, but is it worth the saving.

 

[Andrew38]

Not sure it's a Volvo issue as any engine is the same as mentioned above, new metal to new metal, the outcome is bits and surely these bits need to be got rid of as soon as possible, so engine manufacturers suggest you get rid of this, after it's done a small amount of bedding in. Engine manufacturers dont make oil so they wont gain anything if you change or you dont change.

There is another idea and that is not to change the oil leave the bits in there and save the money, but you have to live with the fact that these bits are being pumped around your engine, if you end and I don't mean you, but anyone ends up with a scratched bore, and a smokey engine you won't be surprised to hear Volvo say they are not interested. All being well the filters will do their job, but is it worth the saving.

Two comments to this post....

Again, there's been no argument about changing oil and filters in an engine's early days, though having worked in & around Caterpillar for most of my working life, I know that modern diesel engine manufacturing processes plus the latest flushing techniques allow diesel engines in cars and industrial applications to run for massive periods before first oil & filter changes. The core argument is about Volvo wanting 2 filter changes in less than 12 months, particularly when, due to the lack of use over the winter the number of hours the engines will have run between the changes could be counted on fingers & toes!

You're right that the engine mfrs don't make oil BUT they do sell it under their own brand and generally at prices massively higher than the oil manufacturers. The Volvo dealer will then only use VP branded oil in servicing your engine - the same applies to filters. The Yanmar filters on my previous boat cost around £35 from a Yanmar agent but the same filter from Cummins/Fleetguard was £9 and you cannot accuse Fleetguard of not making a quality filter. The same seems to apply to VP filters except there is virtually no cross referenced filters to the one's used on their latest engines - so you have to buy theirs.

 

[Latestarter1]

Not sure it's a Volvo issue as any engine is the same as mentioned above, new metal to new metal, the outcome is bits and surely these bits need to be got rid of as soon as possible, so engine manufacturers suggest you get rid of this, after it's done a small amount of bedding in. Engine manufacturers dont make oil so they wont gain anything if you change or you dont change.

There is another idea and that is not to change the oil leave the bits in there and save the money, but you have to live with the fact that these bits are being pumped around your engine, if you end and I don't mean you, but anyone ends up with a scratched bore, and a smokey engine you won't be surprised to hear Volvo say they are not interested. All being well the filters will do their job, but is it worth the saving.

I struggle to believe that posters here are in the 21st Century?

The issue raised by the OP was purely a commercial one involving the highly questionable Volvo First Service Inspection which is a requirement in order to obtain second year coverage. Industry standard is two year warranty, however VP just slip in FSI as a bit of dealer cash generation in on the pretence that they are giving you second year as a bonus.

The other basic industry standard is lube and filter change every 250hs OR 6 months.

Volvo already have stanglehold of dubious leagality over requirement for servicing to be carried out only by VP franchised dealers during warranty period. VP even tries it on over policy coverage out of warranty, they call it good will. I have experienced VP stating that they may have paid out for out of warranty failure, however servicing carried out but non franchised dealer therefore customer is disqualified from product rectification. You have to use a big stick to obtain settlement. However as a customer base if you allow one manufacturer to obtain a dominant position, this is the price you pay.

However this post appears to have shifted focus from a commercial to a technical one. It may have been lost on some posters that we no longer produce engines by hand fitting, I last hand scraped white metal bearings in the 1960's. Fact is that engines are produced super clean plants with all critical operations being automated and only very low levels manual input. The only wearing process which takes place in a new engine is bedding in of honed bore finish, which is why getting the engine under load when new is so important, early reduction in blow by is critical. Tickling a new motor along at very light loads is never kind. Diesel engines unlike pansy gasoline motors are designed to work, good dose of sensible 'tight wire' gets the power cylinder bedded in quickly with no risk of bore polish.

Talk of debris floating around a new motor would horrify production engineers. Common production standard is to select engine at random off the line and run it for 500 hours on dyno test, some of test cycle is brutal 10% over-fuel 10% over-speed stuff. Engine is then torn down for critical examination by a comittee of technical guys (the production engineers are present but certainly not ruling the roost) used lube oil is subject to spectroscopic patch analysis. Any signs of mechanical component distress or abnormal wear metals in lube would set off alarm bells in the plant.

I do not know what correct service interval for D6 is, however suspect it is at least 250 hr OR 6 month standard. Making up ones own rules based on mistaken understanding of how engines are built makes no technical sense. If an owner wants to dump lube at less than 250 hours just as a 'feel good factor' then this cannot questioned. However steam rollering customers into VP dealer revenue generation is another matter.

 

[Andrew38]

I struggle to believe that posters here are in the 21st Century?

The issue raised by the OP was purely a commercial one involving the highly questionable Volvo First Service Inspection which is a requirement in order to obtain second year coverage. Industry standard is two year warranty, however VP just slip in FSI as a bit of dealer cash generation in on the pretence that they are giving you second year as a bonus.

The other basic industry standard is lube and filter change every 250hs OR 6 months.

Volvo already have stanglehold of dubious leagality over requirement for servicing to be carried out only by VP franchised dealers during warranty period. VP even tries it on over policy coverage out of warranty, they call it good will. I have experienced VP stating that they may have paid out for out of warranty failure, however servicing carried out but non franchised dealer therefore customer is disqualified from product rectification. You have to use a big stick to obtain settlement. However as a customer base if you allow one manufacturer to obtain a dominant position, this is the price you pay.

However this post appears to have shifted focus from a commercial to a technical one. It may have been lost on some posters that we no longer produce engines by hand fitting, I last hand scraped white metal bearings in the 1960's. Fact is that engines are produced super clean plants with all critical operations being automated and only very low levels manual input. The only wearing process which takes place in a new engine is bedding in of honed bore finish, which is why getting the engine under load when new is so important, early reduction in blow by is critical. Tickling a new motor along at very light loads is never kind. Diesel engines unlike pansy gasoline motors are designed to work, good dose of sensible 'tight wire' gets the power cylinder bedded in quickly with no risk of bore polish.

Talk of debris floating around a new motor would horrify production engineers. Common production standard is to select engine at random off the line and run it for 500 hours on dyno test, some of test cycle is brutal 10% over-fuel 10% over-speed stuff. Engine is then torn down for critical examination by a comittee of technical guys (the production engineers are present but certainly not ruling the roost) used lube oil is subject to spectroscopic patch analysis. Any signs of mechanical component distress or abnormal wear metals in lube would set off alarm bells in the plant.

I do not know what correct service interval for D6 is, however suspect it is at least 250 hr OR 6 month standard. Making up ones own rules based on mistaken understanding of how engines are built makes no technical sense. If an owner wants to dump lube at less than 250 hours just as a 'feel good factor' then this cannot questioned. However steam rollering customers into VP dealer revenue generation is another matter.

For the record VP Operators manual states oil change every 200 hrs or 12 months - after FSI & 1st annual service, of course.

 

[spannerman]

Its not true that Volvo only honour their warranty if you take it to a dealer for servicing, not here in Norway anyway as its not legal. There are a lot of taxi boats here with VP engines and they never ever come into a dealer for servicing, the operators do themselves, we do however get them in when there is a fault during the warranty period which Volvo honours.
Volvo can only insist that you use original parts and follow the servicing schedule to keep the warranty valid.

 

[penfold]

Think I mentioned it before, we had a junior engineer who in a fit of depression take a crankcase door off mid Pacific and jump inside. Chief was furious, he had the lowest operating costs in the fleet until we were ordered to re-bunker lube oil in Panama. Chiefie was forever moaning and saying 'why could't he just go over the wall like any normal person'.

There isn't enough money in the world to induce me to clean the purifier and/or the crankcase after that. Like your chief says, why could he not just be a bit more considerate and jump over the side with some scrap in his pockets?

 

[Latestarter1]

There isn't enough money in the world to induce me to clean the purifier and/or the crankcase after that. Like your chief says, why could he not just be a bit more considerate and jump over the side with some scrap in his pockets?

Yep and we did not even have fancy self cleaning Alfa Laval purifiers, just old fashoned Sharples junk.

To make matters worse even though on our way home he had nothing worth having in his personal effects to divi up, think all I got a well worn Bahco adjustable spanner!

On another trip ships carpenter went over the wall, bosun could not wait to get stuck into the chippies wonderful selection of personal tools. Crafty old sod understood the system so must have dumped all his gear over the side before following it.

 

[Latestarter1]

Its not true that Volvo only honour their warranty if you take it to a dealer for servicing, not here in Norway anyway as its not legal. There are a lot of taxi boats here with VP engines and they never ever come into a dealer for servicing, the operators do themselves, we do however get them in when there is a fault during the warranty period which Volvo honours.
Volvo can only insist that you use original parts and follow the servicing schedule to keep the warranty valid.

Spannerman

As recently as January this year VP made just specific statement regarding four year old failed engine. 'If engine had been serviced within franchised network we would have considered a good will claim'.

I agree totally that provided that you adhere to service guidelines you SHOULD be able to have whoever you please perform your servicing. EC law is same in Norway as rest of Europe, however in UK and France VP seem to make up their own rules as highlighted by OP.

 

[Spi D]

Can't say if EU law in Norway goes for the rest of EU as Norway is not a member.

Denmark is, however, and so is our neighbour Sweden, the home country of Volvo.
No manufacturer is allowed to make the base warranty depend on a specific brand of oil or even services performed by specific workshops. Manufacturers can however demand that service is done by professionals and that this can be documented.

A different attitude, also known from the car industry, is to offer extended warranty and then hang up the special rules on that: Yes, you can get a xx year warranty, but rules apply and often are that you let the autorized dealer do all service and/or repair.

Volvo knows that their parts are more expensive than the competition.

Parts can be checked on
http://www.marinepartseurope.com
if you want to see which models share filters etc. Might be helpful if you look for alternatives to VP's OEM.

 

[simon597]

Oil changes

I should not probably throw my hat in the ring ??? But here goes ?

I work for a marine engineering firm, we sell and are main dealers for Scania, Volvo Penta, Yanmar, Yamaha, Perkins, Shire, Mercury, Mariner and Vetus (and a few more aside). all manufacturers recommend some form of first service, this first 50 hrs oil change that's been mentioned is in my and their opinion to ensure their product is all installed correctly blah blah blah etc.... but also the oil as spannerman has pointed out is needed to be done,

As for the originator of the thread not too sure who was spoken to about the winterisation but I wouldn't change the oil after the first service has been completed as the time between wouldn't make the operation worth while going into winterisation .... after the first service (including the oil change) I would go back to yearly or hourly depending on what comes first on his boat ?

As for the IPS issues and oil change further down the page. find someone who knows what the are talking about as the oil IS NOT changed on the unit on the first 50 hours only the engine oil and all other checks are done with the boat in the water......

Hope I've helped (now for the comments LOL!!!)

 

[Latestarter1]

'and their opinion to ensure their product is all installed correctly blah blah blah etc....'

So Volvo FSI works out as a super deal!

You get:

Exhaust back pressure and WOT pyro check.

Fuel restriction check.

Raw water pump delta 'P'

Engine compartment delta 'T'

Tacho calibration check.

Etc, Ect

This would suggest that Volvo allow their engines to be installed and signed off with scant recognition of their guidelines?