Foam Cored Hulls

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My cruising tri with GRP/Airex PVC foam is thirty years old and still tough.

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This is exactly my point
 
Personally I would be wary of buying anything with a cored hull - or deck for that matter. I realise that in most cases if the owner doesn't do anything silly and if the manufacturer used best practise there probably won't be a problem. But I have a feeling that in the future as they get older more and more boats are going to be found with damp sandwiches, so to speak, and that it's going to be perceived as more of an issue for future buyers than it is now.

It may be difficult to diagnose whether a boat has a potential problem or not when buying it. I suspect that by the time it is easily diagnos-able, it will often already be very expensive to cure.

I suspect that it will become an issue in secondhand boats maintaining their value, even if they're perfectly OK, if that type of boat/construction starts to get a bad name. For that reason alone -future secondhand values - let alone the risk of actually developing a problem, I would steer clear of them.

I realise that's currently considered an over-cautious viewpoint and I may get a slating for it, but I personally still wouldn't put my money there unless I was after a racing machine with limited life.
 
G'day SimonCR,

Me thinks if you did a little more research you might change your views.

Some of the early racing boats made from foam sandwich are still around after more than 30 years and still no sign of problems.

Foam Sandwich construction is not for racing only, it provides a stiffer hull at less weight, with better thermal and noise insulation, so ideal for cruising boats.

'Some' manufacturers produced what they thought were good craft but failed to use closed foam and others used the correct foam but not the best techniques like vacuum systems.

The poorly manufactured vessels are for the most part gone to boat heaven but for the few build by armature builders in back yards.

Having sailed and repaired Foam core, composite, concrete, steel, GRP, carbon fibre and ply to mention a few I would still go for a foam sandwich.

By the way, even the ones that were not built well to start with can be fixed, it is expensive because it's very labour intensive. However for anyone not in a great hurry and wants to build their own internal layout the low up front cost can make them very viable. The end product has many advantages over other building systems.

Avagoodweekend......
 
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Some of the early racing boats made from foam sandwich are still around after more than 30 years and still no sign of problems.

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'Some' isn't good enough for me. Though as I said, I said I do believe most boats don't have problems - at least after a decade or two. BTW I had a sailing dinghy that I owned become not worth repairing after the GRP developed hundreds of small holes in the deck hull joint and became soggy. What I was talking about is the way that I believe perceptions will go - that I believe it will be become more of an issue in buyers minds in the future. A bit like osmosis did a few years ago. Though I think osmosis is a less critical, non-structural issue, and cheaper to treat. For me I wouldn't want to risk it. I appreciate that many, even most, people are happy to put their money there at the moment, just not me.
 
I would say that I woudn't 100% rule out a boat with closed cell foam decks, if I believed it was well made, fittings properly sealed etc. But wouldn't go for on with balsa.
 
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Common sense.

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In other words you have no experience do you? How can you offer advice based on a guess? Even after what (I assume) you have read that david__Brighton and myself have writen, two people who know and have experience of foam core.
 
I have had one boat go soggy as I mentioned above. How many boats must I lose before I'm entitled to an opinion?

Rather than rubbishing others' opinions because they don't accord with your own, why not just accept that not everyone will go for an ETAP?
 
Simon

The only one rubbishing a view here is you, both David and I are basing our views on EXPERIENCE!!! Not guesses. You are entitled to an opinion, of course, but to offer advise on every foam filled boat on conjecture is wrong!

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why not just accept that not everyone will go for an ETAP?

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I certainly dont and never have!
 
So what is your experience then, you haven't mentioned it yet. Have you had more boats go soggy than I have? Or your 'experience' is just what you described - that you haven't heard other ETAP owners talking about it?
 
Back to the issue

My point, which you have seemed to have missed completely, is that, whether or not a boat suffers from it, the fear of it can have an effect on secondhand prices. Reading back on the responses in this thread it's clear that quite a lot of people already regard it as a potential problem and are wary.

My view is that the concern is likely to get more publicity and become a more widespread concern in the future, which will affect secondhand prices. You may disagree and you are entitled to, but luckily you're not spending my money, and you are not entitled to bulldoze me with your opinion.

Got to go now.
 
the only personal experience that I can draw on is Etap, from my connection with the factory and the owners Assc. I also draw on the reports of others, like david_Brghton, with regard to other makes, to add to that. You can read about my own experience in prior posts on this thread.

I am happy to recognise that some boat will have foam core problems, but what I object to, irrespective of my association with Etap, is a sweeping statement that ALL boats with foam cores are likely to have problems. History shows they are good for at least 35 years!

Now if you wish to modify what you are saying by agreeing with me that SOME boats will have foam core issues, then we are in agreement. Now thats not unreasonable is it?
 
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is a sweeping statement that ALL boats with foam cores are likely to have problems.

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Good heavens where did I say that?! I think I said - twice - that I don't believe most boats will suffer from it - within a decade or two at least.

I said: [ QUOTE ]
I realise that in most cases if the owner doesn't do anything silly and if the manufacturer used best practise there probably won't be a problem.

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and
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Though as I said, I said I do believe most boats don't have problems - at least after a decade or two.

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So of course I woud agree with you that [ QUOTE ]
that SOME boats will have foam core issues, then we are in agreement.

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Just some general thoughts, not addressed to anybody in particular.....

A couple of years ago an American yacht here came ashore one night when the wind clocked round to the NW and a shackle parted in her anchor cable. She came diagonally, just missing a large reef to the west of her.
Her whole hull was balsa sandwich fibreglass construction, built in the late 60's or early 70's.

The only realistic way of getting her off at the time was to pull her off using a tug. The tug's draft was too much for the tug to get close enough in to pull her out diagonally, ie the same way that she came in, so they decided to pull her off straight across the reef.
I was helping the owners of the yacht to rig a bridle around the boat for the towing cable, and was on board as she got dragged across the reef at 5 knots (the slowest the tug could pull at apparently).
I was convinced (from the graunching sounds going on) that the hull was falling apart rapidly, and that we would sink once we got out into deeper water.
But when I jumped over the side with a mask and had a look when she was floating, I found that the outer skin and part of the balsa core had been ripped off, while the inner skin was still intact. I was impressed, and this incident did modify my previous opinions re cored hulls.

Our boat has a balsa cored deck - there are a couple of small (say about 1' square) areas where the outer skin has delaminated from the core - it is slightly spongy, but still fairly strong. However I shall have to attend to it at some stage.....

A pal of mine here bought a home built Roberts 34 some years ago - she had plywood cored decks, and all of the plywood had rotted completey. He took the whole outer skin off and replaced the core with foam, and then re-glassed the deck - it was a big job!
 
I'm coming to this thread late, so hope my contribution will still be useful. My Sadler 34 is foam-filled, now 23 years old. The foam used is closed-cell and appears not to have suffered any water penetration whatsoever. Years ago I fitted Yacht Legs, which entailed removing a piece of the inner skin and foam about 10 x 20 cm on each topside. For interest I submerged a piece of the foam in water for a couple of weeks and at the end of this time I was unable to detect any increase in weight or dampness.
 
My previous boat had a balsa cored hull and deck.It had been poorly built and I had to replace all the deck core.The hull ,strangely enough ,was dry but there were hollow spots that I had to fill with epoxy resin.
Although it took a lot of work to put right I loved that boat as she was very strong once repaired.I still would buy another sandwich hulled boat but this time I'd be careful and look out for signs of problems .
 
Also coming in late - I have seen some pretty grim solid laminate boats, particularly 5 to 15 years ago when the osmosis scare was at its height and yards were full of boats with the gel coat taken off and all the voids and dry glass exposed. Worst was a Centaur that had to have the whole of the hull between the keels replaced because it was like cardboard! Early GRP boats hold together largely because of the weight of glass and resin used rather than by design.

Things have moved on and cored hulls are a good structural solution. But as with everything it is detail and execution that counts. So, yes, there may be hulls that delaminate and foam that absorb water, but in the last 10 or 15 years thousands of AWBs have been produced that don't do either. New production methods such as resin infusion and vacuum bagging will result in even better hulls, leaving more displacement available for racy keels or to fill the hull up with watermakers, gennies, TVs, beer and wine etc.
 
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