bbg
Well-Known Member
A really impressive thread to have lasted nearly 100 posts, given that Temptress answered the question in post #9.
The answers are:
"Yes, you would be breaking the law"
and
"The Maritime Shipping Act 1995"
Fly the Union Jack
- Thread starter Ex-SolentBoy
- Start date
The answers are:
"Yes, you would be breaking the law"
and
"The Maritime Shipping Act 1995"
TamarMike
Well-Known Member
I think a red dragon flag in the top corner of a St Davids cross (yellow/gold on a black background would make a pretty Welsh ensign
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
I,m not sure about that. I'm not quite old enough to remember, but according to Wikepedia, the Scottish Red Ensign was use by the Royal Scots Navy, so not wishing to claim to be part of anyone's Navy, I'll just fly, or wear, my country's flag.
Also used by the Scottish Merchant Navy. There is a rather nice contemporary painting of a 17th century scottish merchantman with the scottish ensign in Aberdeen Maritime Museum. The Royal Scots Navy was tiny, anyway, so the overwhelming use would have been civilian.
awol
Well-Known Member
The Scots Navy is considerably larger these days comprising all the SFPA and SEPA vessels +, of course, Davy's Navy. Probably numerically more than the RN.
puddock
Well-Known Member
That has put my mind at ease, thank you for that information. I was just sitting here, thinking to myself "what would I do if my attempts to draw attention to my impending doom resulted in all my flares and radio calls going unnoticed....".
Boy would THAT get some attention !
puddock
Well-Known Member
Oh Bu33er ! Back to the drawing board........
temptress
Well-Known Member
A:
Merchant Shipping Act 1995 (c. 21)
......"
....... The Act gives an entitlement, not an obligation. ......
The offence created is, it seems, for a ship of another nationality to fly the red ensign, which would amount to pretending to be British. By contrast, it is not, I think, an offence for a foreign ship to fly a Union Jack (or Flag) as this is not protected by the same entitlement.....
I disagree. As with all these things you need to read thw whole act but another setion reads:
5 Duty to show British flag
(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, a British ship, other than a fishing vessel, shall hoist the red ensign or other proper national colours—
(a) on a signal being made to the ship by one of Her Majesty’s ships (including any ship under the command of a commissioned naval officer); and
(b) on entering or leaving any foreign port; and
(c) in the case of ships of 50 or more tons gross tonnage, on entering or leaving any British port.
(2) Subsection (1)(c) above does not apply to a small ship (as defined in section 1(2)) registered under Part II.
I'm bored with this now but it matters to me as I come from Belfast and want to Fly an Irish Tricolour but am forced to use a red duster. Actully I fly a defaced blue for which i have a warrant
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
That's also my interpretation.
In any event this only appears to apply to a ships ensign.........therefore perfectly acceptable to fly any other colours you want (including the union jack / flag) from wherever you want - if ever pressed officially just claim it is not the ship's ensign, merely your personal family flag / decoration / a teatowel / your national flag - I doubt their is any copyright restrictions on the colours and patterns, given half the world has it on their flags and underpants
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
In true english tradition dating back to 16th century Elizabethan rule I now pronounce my declaration to the monarch
Or what about..........
Bosun Higgs
N/A
I'm bored with this now but it matters to me as I come from Belfast and want to Fly an Irish Tricolour but am forced to use a red duster. Actully I fly a defaced blue for which i have a warrant
If you are Irish, there's nothing to stop you flying an Irish flag if you wish. And even if you aren't Irish, I for one wouldn't bother. Though you might think twice about doing it in NI
bbg
Well-Known Member
Amazing. A lot of people on here seem to want to interpret the MSA in a way that suits them, despite the clear language that Temptress has kindly provided. Unless you have a warrant to fly a special ensign, this applies to you:
(1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.
So - 1. every British ship is entitled to fly (NB to pedants - not "wear") the red ensign. You are not obliged, but entitled. You can fly it if you want, but you don't have to.
2. that red ensign, if you choose to fly it, must be "without defacement". So standard red ensign, and not some hybrid alternative.
3. a British ship is not entitled to wear any other "colours" i.e. no other national flag.
So, in the ensign spot, it is the red ensign and nothing else (unless you have a warrant). That's the law.
I think this wouldn't apply to flying additional flags from, for example, the port spreaders (stbd being for courtesy flags). But not in the ensign spot.
(1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.
So - 1. every British ship is entitled to fly (NB to pedants - not "wear") the red ensign. You are not obliged, but entitled. You can fly it if you want, but you don't have to.
2. that red ensign, if you choose to fly it, must be "without defacement". So standard red ensign, and not some hybrid alternative.
3. a British ship is not entitled to wear any other "colours" i.e. no other national flag.
So, in the ensign spot, it is the red ensign and nothing else (unless you have a warrant). That's the law.
I think this wouldn't apply to flying additional flags from, for example, the port spreaders (stbd being for courtesy flags). But not in the ensign spot.
nathanlee
Well-Known Member
That's a really, really bad reason. Although I agree, I should be able to break the law if I want to too.
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
Two questions:
1. How do you get from "no other national flag" to "and nothing else"? In other words, the law seems clear that a British ship is not allowed to fly a Stars and Stripes in the ensign position (it's a national flag), but why not a Scull and Crossbones (it isn't a national flag)?
2. Surely a defaced red ensign would be a normal one with something added, like a defaced blue one and not - as i think you are suggesting - any other red flag with something different in the upper hoist corner? What is the legal definition of defaced?
bbg
Well-Known Member
To be honest with you I haven't done the research, and can't at the moment. The law says "no other colours". My personal opinion is that the intent of the law is clear - it is the red ensign and nothing else. In the absence of caselaw, it would be open to you to argue in front of a court* that a skull and crossbones or a red ensign with a saltire in the corner were not "colours" for the purpose of the act. I think it would be a weak argument.
As for defacement, the act actually says "without defacement or any other modification". I think that takes care of your second point.
* I readily acknowledge that the chance of anyone being dragged before a court for flying something other than the red ensign is so low as to be virtually non-existent. The point of this and other posts is to give my interpretation of the statute, and nothing else. The problem I have with some of the posts on this thread is that some people seem to be saying "I want to do something different. Therefore I will interpret the act in a way that suits me, regardless of what the act actually says."
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
If it is the red ensign "and nothing else", what about burgees, house flags, signalling flags and the like?
Not really. You seem to claim that the scottish red ensign is a defaced and/or modified UK red ensign. I think not: it's just another flag designed on broadly similar lines.
I'm afraid, though, that that is just what you seem to be doing. The act says no other national colours must be flown: you want to proscribe flags which are not national colours. The act says that the red ensign must not be modified or defaced: you want to proscribe flags which are not versions of the red ensign.
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awol
Well-Known Member
I think "proscribe" would make more sense.
ean_p
Well-Known Member
well said !!
Ubergeekian
Well-Known Member
How true. It does now!
temptress
Well-Known Member
Small matter of the act of union and occupation.............
bbg
Well-Known Member
As I said in an earlier post - nothing wrong with flying those from the port spreader, for example, but not as an ensign.
As I said, that is an argument you could have with a judge. In one sense every flag could be a modified version of another. Modify the red ensign by changing the field to white, removing the union flag from the corner and adding a big red dot in the center and you have a Japanese flag. Your argument seems to be at the other extreme - that a flag that is different from the red ensign is not a modified or defaced version of it, but a different flag. Your "scottish red ensign" is extremely close to the red ensign, given that the saltire forms part of the union flag. You could run your argument in court, but I think it is an extremely weak argument and you would probably lose.
First, you have misquoted the act. It refers to "colours", not "national colours". I, in trying to explain, referred to national flags - but the act refers to "colours". As I said in my last post, if this issue ever made it into a courtroom there would probably be a debate about what "colours" means. [Edit - I lifted your quote before you changed prescribe to proscribe. But I knew what you meant.]
As noted above, your approach is that any difference from the red ensign amounts to a different flag - therefore not a modification. I think replacing the union flag in the corner with the saltire would almost certainly be held, by a court, to be a modified version. If there were other differences (e.g. the field was green instead of red; the dimensions of the flag in the corner were different than on the red ensign etc.) you might have more of a chance. But simply changing the flag so that the corner contains a saltire instead of a union flag would amount - IMHO - to a "modification" of the red ensign.
And just to be clear - I don't "want" to do anything. If you read my posts carefully you will see I have made no comment on whether anyone should or should not fly any other flag. I have made no judgment on your choice to fly what you call the scottish red ensign (note - the fact that you call it that is another indication that it is a modification of the red ensign).
I am limiting myself to giving you an interpretation of the law. You might not like it. You might not want to follow it. Those things are up to you. But it won't change my view of what the act says.
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