Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
so when it is all too awful and you need to be lifted out by helicopter what are you going to get into?
Michael - smiling!
Michael - smiling!
Flotation bags instead of liferaft?
- Thread starter brownsox
- Start date
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
so when it is all too awful and you need to be lifted out by helicopter what are you going to get into?
[/ QUOTE ]
If all goes according to plan....
the bloody helicopter! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
so when it is all too awful and you need to be lifted out by helicopter what are you going to get into?
[/ QUOTE ]
If all goes according to plan....
the bloody helicopter! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
What an interesting set of opinions and ideas!
FWIW I spent some time as a Sea Cadet officer on board an ex-RN fleet tender (Appleby). This had been fitted with a flotation collar that surrounded and lay under the gunwhales. This was an installation funded by I know not who to prove it's viability. I never saw it deployed. Anybody else know anything further?
Fire;- you've got to get off but otherwise its got to be better to stay aboard when any part shows above the waves. There was little mention of watertight bulkheads and lockers. One of the problems seems to be that you need to do the sums to see how much leakage can be counteracted. Fully submerged, how much does the displacement change? Even engines lose some weight when immersed. Adding up all the naturally bouyant fittings, bulkheads, airtight spaces, etc could be an interesting (impossible?) exercise.
A company in Gloucester used to make under-mattress flotation bags. I believe it sank without trace.
FWIW I spent some time as a Sea Cadet officer on board an ex-RN fleet tender (Appleby). This had been fitted with a flotation collar that surrounded and lay under the gunwhales. This was an installation funded by I know not who to prove it's viability. I never saw it deployed. Anybody else know anything further?
Fire;- you've got to get off but otherwise its got to be better to stay aboard when any part shows above the waves. There was little mention of watertight bulkheads and lockers. One of the problems seems to be that you need to do the sums to see how much leakage can be counteracted. Fully submerged, how much does the displacement change? Even engines lose some weight when immersed. Adding up all the naturally bouyant fittings, bulkheads, airtight spaces, etc could be an interesting (impossible?) exercise.
A company in Gloucester used to make under-mattress flotation bags. I believe it sank without trace.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
If all goes according to plan....
the bloody helicopter! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Have you met anyone who has been lifted off a boat with a huge great stick with wire bits waving around? In those circumstances you need to get clear of the yacht...
In all seriousness I think staying with the boat till the mast goes under is always the best way... If the boat has sufficient watertight compartments (like the Titanic) to never sink that's fine. I would have little faith in a rubber flotations collar, that may have been holed, perished and probably not serviced - ever.
I do carry a liferaft with an indate or near service, whenever I go ocean sailing.... And probably always would. The liferaft is the option of last resort - but there are pretty good odds on it doing, what it says on the label, if that 'last resort' situation arose. Not so certain any flotation device or watertight bulkheads would do the same -
Michael
Michael
If all goes according to plan....
the bloody helicopter! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Have you met anyone who has been lifted off a boat with a huge great stick with wire bits waving around? In those circumstances you need to get clear of the yacht...
In all seriousness I think staying with the boat till the mast goes under is always the best way... If the boat has sufficient watertight compartments (like the Titanic) to never sink that's fine. I would have little faith in a rubber flotations collar, that may have been holed, perished and probably not serviced - ever.
I do carry a liferaft with an indate or near service, whenever I go ocean sailing.... And probably always would. The liferaft is the option of last resort - but there are pretty good odds on it doing, what it says on the label, if that 'last resort' situation arose. Not so certain any flotation device or watertight bulkheads would do the same -
Michael
Michael
totopalm
Well-Known Member
Well bless your little cotton socks too Michael
Boathook
Well-Known Member
How do you know that the liferaft will work ? I prefer to reply upon my dinghy for cross channel as I know that it works. I'm not to sure how you go sailing as it is so dangerous in your view.
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
Very topical in light of: "US couple who quit jobs to sail the world lose everything as their boat sinks two days into dream voyage" after hitting a submerged object.
I like your thinking; different, would take some thinking to incorporate into design of boat (or retro fitting), but would certainly create a sturdier and larger liferaft than the current ones - (if they inflate they don't last long as Dougal Robertson found out and took to his grp tender).
If I were to go blue water sailing with things of value (ie people) I would take a liferaft, avon flubber, your flotation bag system and all the electronic safety gear - using the floatation bags firstly (assuming all the design issues have been addressed so they deploy in less than a minute) to try a repair whilst sending out a panpan perhaps, then move onto the other lifesaving equipment if the the flotation system didn't work.
I'd love to work on such a design and solve all the issues (but won't because no one is paying me to design these days and even if I succeeded on my own, launching such a product would be a nightmare for a small company)
Hopefully you or a big company will do it and good luck - a backup to a backup is always good in my book.
Would make for a better film than "All Is Lost" too; hit a container, move away from container, press a button and WHOOSH, you are in your liferaft.
Single handed is a different matter and down to one's own values.
Or go by catamaran.
I like the idea of detachable keel too; had not heard of that before.
Sailingsaves
Well-Known Member
OR (if the main worry is the liferaft not working), buy multiples of these (from different manufacturers) and the probability of more inflating than failing is improved... (perhaps - or buy all the same from same manufacturer? That could improve the probability of success or decrease it depending upon reliability of manufacturer...so just talked myself into a corner there).
Develop the flotation bags (and have full volume of boat) or go for a foam filled boat (works for Roger Taylor but he does not need much volume inside boat)
http://survitecgroup.com/media/208739/single-seat-brochure.pdf
http://www.navalsystems-tech.com/su...and-life-support-solutions/survitec-group-ltd
May have to stick two people into one raft if a raft fails.
I have two of these (old and not to be relied upon) and one is still boxed (measures about 35cmx35cmx12cm)
Do away with flotation bags because your 24 footer would certainly have room for these.
Develop the flotation bags (and have full volume of boat) or go for a foam filled boat (works for Roger Taylor but he does not need much volume inside boat)
http://survitecgroup.com/media/208739/single-seat-brochure.pdf
http://www.navalsystems-tech.com/su...and-life-support-solutions/survitec-group-ltd
May have to stick two people into one raft if a raft fails.
I have two of these (old and not to be relied upon) and one is still boxed (measures about 35cmx35cmx12cm)
Do away with flotation bags because your 24 footer would certainly have room for these.
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
> would be interesting to see if there are any stats available to determine how many boats have been lost through fire at sea compared to hitting submerged object/downflooding/holing etc.
I cant give stats but we saw a yacht catch fire in Antigua Sailing Week and another at anchor in Bonaire, both were electrical faults. The sequence is smoke, then flames through the hatches, then the mast falls down. The Bonaire boat, with the hull burnt down to the water, was towed to near a reef and sunk for a dive attraction. The owners of Bonaire boat lost all their belongings including money and passports so there was a whip round to them back on their feet. The only good news was their dog was on deck and was saved.
I cant give stats but we saw a yacht catch fire in Antigua Sailing Week and another at anchor in Bonaire, both were electrical faults. The sequence is smoke, then flames through the hatches, then the mast falls down. The Bonaire boat, with the hull burnt down to the water, was towed to near a reef and sunk for a dive attraction. The owners of Bonaire boat lost all their belongings including money and passports so there was a whip round to them back on their feet. The only good news was their dog was on deck and was saved.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Certainly lifted the lid off a concrete boat we were lifting a few years ago, bag which had been stuffed in the saloon appeared but no boat. In the end it took 4 bags on 2 slings under the hull.
Flotation bags in a lighter boat may seem like a good idea but in practice you would be in a cramped space in very cold water (assuming UK) and if the keel had fallen off, what then?
fisherman
Well-Known Member
One point made in sea survival course: in WW2 some 35000 seamen lost their lives, most through exposure clinging to carly floats or in open boats. In a closed raft after 20 minutes the atmosphere is saturated and you stop losing heat through evaporation.
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
Tony Bullimore survived several days in his flooded, upside-down, keel-less boat, in the c-o-o-ld Southern Ocean. He eventually struggled, soaked and close to hypothermic, into a survival suit. I notice that used offshore industry survival suits can be had for about £40; Thermal Protective Aids ( TPAs - one each ) are now well under a tenner.
Surely, the 'going across channel' situation requires only that the crew survive until picked up, not to be able to continue their passage up to their elbows in salty stuff...?
I can attest that one can sail a Hurley 24/70 ( Ireland and back ) with both a packed liferaft and a well-deflated inflatable stowed below in the toilet space, and with just a degree of inconvenience.
Both were capable of being stowed in the cockpit/on the cabin top.
Surely, the 'going across channel' situation requires only that the crew survive until picked up, not to be able to continue their passage up to their elbows in salty stuff...?
I can attest that one can sail a Hurley 24/70 ( Ireland and back ) with both a packed liferaft and a well-deflated inflatable stowed below in the toilet space, and with just a degree of inconvenience.
Both were capable of being stowed in the cockpit/on the cabin top.
lpdsn
Well-Known Member
A Day Skipper course would've been a better investment for them than a liferaft. Entering a notorious shifting channel at night with no navigational skills and no local knowledge wasn't wise. At least a dazed kipper should've known enough not to attempt it. The mysterious underwater object was called Florida.
Not surprised they lost the keel either. The Sigma that missed the entrance to Malahide ten years or so ago, or was it longer, left its keel in the sand too.
JimC
Well-Known Member
Regarding sinking caused by the boat being holed: the impact is likely to be with the forward part of the boat or, if sideways-on, the bilges rather than the bottom I should have thought. Most cruising yachts have one or more large lockers under the v-berth in the bows, wouldn't it be a good idea to fit these with waterproof locker doors rather than the loose plywood panels usually fitted. Perhaps also the lockers under the side berths. Not to increase buoyancy but to contain and isolate water ingress to prevent the boat sinking. Suitable watertight locker doors are widely available in many sizes. e.g. https://www.marinescene.co.uk/category/1656/rectangular-hatch, Wouldn't help much if you were holed through pounding on the bottom and the keel driven up through the hull, unless you were in a twin-keeler with the keel bolts under the bunks.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
There was an article in PBO many years ago about some one who had folding flotation bags under the cushions of the bunks and seats . There were bags were then inflated using a SCUBA cylinder.