Flotation bags instead of liferaft?

Do:
Sea survival course.

Buy:
Liferaft, grab bag, EPIRB

Don't muck about with the sea. Otherwise make sure your life assurance is paid up.

End of argument.
 
If you are really concerned about staying afloat in a holed boat (ar'nt we all!) then, dont forget it will need to be tested with your boat flooded, the cost of installing air bags that will work will cost a lot more than changing your boat to one that is designed to do what you are trying to retro fit.

Most people go to sea in boats without inbuilt floatation, without any problem. Some of us are lucky that our boats do have buoyancy built in. The capability of a flooded Etap has been well documented in several yachting journals.

Even with a liferaft you never can be sure it will work. The following is taken from the report by Philip Watson on the sinking of Megawat, last year, they were lucky, a yacht was close too, enabling a rescue.

"I put the liferaft into the water alongside the cockpit and sharply tugged the painter line to inflate it. We hoped to get into it, let it away from Megawat on a long painter, and get aboard the 54 footer from the raft. Disappointment may not be quite the right word for what I was feeling when the hissing stopped after just 5 seconds, leaving about the right amount of CO2 for a life-jacket in the raft! We cut the hopelessly under-inflated raft away as it was likely to impede rescue".

The sinking of Megawat, due to rudder failure, a Hanse 371 took place about a month before I did a non stop crossing from Gosport to Cork in a Hanse 371, I still went. Lightning never strikes twice etc.... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

But never forget the most dangerous part of going to sea is the drive to the marina.
 
Sorry, dont mean to mislead, perhaps 20 - 30 cm is a little overgenerous, but have a look here:

http://www.etapyachting.com/index.cfm?Part=Yachts&Page=Unsinkability

There was an article in a couple of yachting journals about an ETAP 21 that was sailed across the channel, fully flooded. There was also some pictures in an old YM of a 38i under tow in the Red Sea, it had hit a reef and was flooded.

Its my understanding that the certification process that Etap adhere too dictates that the boat CAN be sailed when flooded.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Mine is not an opinion It is a Fact do not go boatingwithout one


[/ QUOTE ]

What a lot of nonsense.

People have been safely crossing the Channel for many years in much ropier boats without reliable engines and not knowing precisely where they are - and all, funnily enouth, without liferafts. In a modern boat there's less reason than ever to carry a liferaft and the reason that most people do is that they are relatively far cheaper than they used to be compared to boat price and marina charges.

Are they a useful and safety thing to have - certainly but they are also lethal except in calm weather with strong crew. Should they be on a budget sailor's list, perhaps at the expense of a new sail or engine service or seacocks or fire extinguishers, or even DSC, EPIRB, flares and radar. I'd suggest not.

If you can afford the money and the space - well fair enough but the chance of using the liferaft is small, and even smaller is the chance of using one without killing a crew member along the way. Keeping the main boat safe is far more important than having a dodgy alternative -FACT - well no, just my opinion of course.
 
Etap owner is correct. The standard requires a minimum settlement in the water as a of percentage of the total free board, which I think works out at about 8 inches. The stability test of the flooded boat requires it to be 'ok' with the full compliment of adult crew sitting on the cabin roof, according to one article and photographs I saw about twenty years ago, in PBO. There is still fire to consider but this risk can be reduced with care.
 
i have sailed a 24footer which had flotation bags. they were aft and were filled by a scuba tank. I think there may be companies which supply these but i have never come across them.

No protection from fire but a much more attractive idea than getting into a liferaft
 
You imply that a significant number of RNLI rescues in the channel are from liferafts - I don't think so. It's going to be a very very small proportion indeed.

Happy to be proved wrong but I can be fairly sure I won't be.
 
Getting all antsy about it Northshore doesn't make your opinion any more valid. Crossing the channel is not 'Offshore' as you state, we were rather dissapointed in fact to never be out of sight of land! No one argues that a liferaft is essential for ocean going voyages, but the day a liferaft is considered 'essential' for the sort of sailing I described is the day the marketing men have won.
 
Sorry Rupert,
I did'nt mean to imply how many RNLI recues
are made.I was asking what the RNLI feel about carrying
liferafts?In my stance on liferafts i did'nt mean to sound like
the Ayatollah
 
Fair enough - and no apology needed as I was pretty robust (or do I mean rude) in return.

I'm not sure that it's very relevant whether lifeboats carry liferafts themselves, compared to how often they actually encounter liferafts which have saved peoples lives. I don't disagree that liferafts can be useful in rare circumstances but think they should be a fair way down a priority list for sailors who don't have the kind of budget that the RNLI do.

I'm much more concerned about the likely ways of getting into trouble and mitigating them, but have still hired a liferaft when I'd been able to cover all the other bases and was going much further than normal for the first time (Spain from the Solent) - I just can't imagine using it unless the boat was on fire or the mast had already disappeared below the water.
 
Interested to see others challenging the exclusive necessity of a liferaft. As mentioned earlier in the thread look at

http://www.turtlepac.com/default.htm

for flotation bags, where they are suggested instead of a liferaft.

The main objections must be fire and total destruction of the yacht. In non storm conditions, escape to a dinghy would presumably suffice in the case of fire and I wonder about the chances of human survival from any collision causing structural destruction.

As regards liferafts in local waters, the desirability is oversimplified. A healthy debate on short term survivability might consider for instance crash helmets to avoid head damage in a knockdown, survival suits and full epirbs for all crew as equally or more important. If Lifeboat/helicopter rescue is likely in a reasonable time, fast alert and detection are possibly the most important elements.
 
Oh! Rupert,
once again my use of words has misled you
I did'nt mean that the RNLI carry liferafts
themselves (interesting question tho).
I meant what is the RNLI's view on us
boaters carrying them
Cheers Tony
 
An Etap 21i was sailed from Calais to Dover and back to Calais with all the hull fittings opened so that the yacht only floated because of the internal foam buoyancy tanks, according to the French sailing magazine "Voile". Would this not be conclusive proof that owners of Etaps and the smaller Beneteaus like the 211 do not need liferafts?
 
I think this is a case of there being more than one way to skin a cat. Flotation bags, built-in buoyancy (foam or watertight compartments) and liferafts will all work. They all have their pros and cons - these have been discussed. I agree it's absolutely last option in an emergency is to get into a raft - these things can basically be considered as one step up in life-preservation ability over an immersion suit.
Problem with the flotation bags, particularly 8 bags at 250kg flotation, is the weight and space taken up by the bags and the CO2 bottles. This is much greater than a liferaft, but being in a wet boat with possibility of repair and pump-out is much better than in a liferaft hanging on for dear life. Best option imho is built-in flotation, and to counter fire fears, added fire-fighting capability - pumps, sprinklers etc.

Kevin
 
[ QUOTE ]
Most people go to sea in boats without inbuilt floatation, without any problem. Some of us are lucky that our boats do have buoyancy built in. The capability of a flooded Etap has been well documented in several yachting journals.

[/ QUOTE ]As has that of the good old Sadler 34's (not to mention the DTI insisting on Sadler Yachts proving the "unsinkability") /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
--------------------
hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
 
OK, lets deal with these points one by one.

Fire, OK, but the same as any boat, it would be a problem, any boat not carrying a liferaft, that is. Usually when we are cruising we have the dinghy on the pushpit. As I asked on an earlier post what are the statistics of boat fires at sea compared to holing, downflooding etc.

Mutiny will never be a problem. I mainly only sail with SWMBO and I have full permision to be in charge on the boat. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If the boat got cut in half, both halves would float. It would be up to luck if you got the end with the beers in!
 
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