EdWingfield
New member
Boat44 You can come sailing with me.
Just don't bring your fireworks.
Just don't bring your fireworks.
Flares
- Thread starter Laundryman
- Start date
toad_oftoadhall
New member
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(and you should all know from your own experience that stuff fails at sea, especialy anything electronic)
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Flares are so intolerant of damp that they have to be kept in waterproof containers!
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Those that rely on there phone, good luck to you, you are going to need it!
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The straw man fallacy is a desperate last resort tactic, if you're reduced to that you can't have much faith in your own case!
(and you should all know from your own experience that stuff fails at sea, especialy anything electronic)
[/ QUOTE ]
Flares are so intolerant of damp that they have to be kept in waterproof containers!
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Those that rely on there phone, good luck to you, you are going to need it!
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The straw man fallacy is a desperate last resort tactic, if you're reduced to that you can't have much faith in your own case!
flaming
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
God help us all.
The only person speaking and sense in this is Dogwatch. The rest of you who will put your life in one mode (electronic) of safety; all I can say is good luck to you and Darwin was right.
Each piece of safety equipment is carried for a reason. Yes they overalp in purpose but that is the point, so you have a back up in case one fails. (and you should all know from your own experience that stuff fails at sea, especialy anything electronic)
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Absolutely spot on.
I saw a flare from my window recently. It was obvious what it was at the first glance. So I phoned the coastguard. When I eventually got through they told me I was the 9th caller to report it.
And they sent someone to look.
So don't pretend Flares don't work. They do.
God help us all.
The only person speaking and sense in this is Dogwatch. The rest of you who will put your life in one mode (electronic) of safety; all I can say is good luck to you and Darwin was right.
Each piece of safety equipment is carried for a reason. Yes they overalp in purpose but that is the point, so you have a back up in case one fails. (and you should all know from your own experience that stuff fails at sea, especialy anything electronic)
[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely spot on.
I saw a flare from my window recently. It was obvious what it was at the first glance. So I phoned the coastguard. When I eventually got through they told me I was the 9th caller to report it.
And they sent someone to look.
So don't pretend Flares don't work. They do.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
[ QUOTE ]
So I phoned the coastguard. When I eventually got through they told me I was the 9th caller to report it.
And they sent someone to look.
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I don't want someone "looking" for me when I'm in peril. I want them to know my exact position and the nature of the problem from the first moment.
Just out of interest in this case what position did you report? Did it result in a sucessful rescue? What was the date?
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So don't pretend Flares don't work. They do.
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Do they? Any evidence to support that? How many sucessful rescues of Yachtsmen occured last year as a result of a flares being launched? How many injuries were cause by flares? I'll wager the first number is smaller than the second number.
So I phoned the coastguard. When I eventually got through they told me I was the 9th caller to report it.
And they sent someone to look.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't want someone "looking" for me when I'm in peril. I want them to know my exact position and the nature of the problem from the first moment.
Just out of interest in this case what position did you report? Did it result in a sucessful rescue? What was the date?
[ QUOTE ]
So don't pretend Flares don't work. They do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do they? Any evidence to support that? How many sucessful rescues of Yachtsmen occured last year as a result of a flares being launched? How many injuries were cause by flares? I'll wager the first number is smaller than the second number.
flaming
Active member
Re read the other excellent posts by dogwatch. The flares are not by any means the only tool sailors should have for summoning help, and obviously in many ways a DSC VHF is a far superior tool.
In this case I have no idea what the outcome was, I saw a flare over rooftops and reported to the coastguard my location and the approximate bearing, together with my opinion that seemed close enough to have come from the Itchen.
From memory, high profile rescues that have involved flares in recent years -
The Wahuna, no response to a mayday after a collision with a ship in the channel. Boat sank and they took to liferaft. Picked up by cross channel ferry that saw their flares.
Hooligan 5. Keel falls off, no time for any sort of mayday as boat turns turtle, in February. The survivors take to the liferaft after managing to free it from the upturned boat. Rescued by a coaster which sighted their flatres with the skipper pretty deep into Hypothermia.
In that case no flares would have equalled no rescue until the morning at the earliest, so at least one more fatality.
And that's just 2 high profile cases from memory.
In this case I have no idea what the outcome was, I saw a flare over rooftops and reported to the coastguard my location and the approximate bearing, together with my opinion that seemed close enough to have come from the Itchen.
From memory, high profile rescues that have involved flares in recent years -
The Wahuna, no response to a mayday after a collision with a ship in the channel. Boat sank and they took to liferaft. Picked up by cross channel ferry that saw their flares.
Hooligan 5. Keel falls off, no time for any sort of mayday as boat turns turtle, in February. The survivors take to the liferaft after managing to free it from the upturned boat. Rescued by a coaster which sighted their flatres with the skipper pretty deep into Hypothermia.
In that case no flares would have equalled no rescue until the morning at the earliest, so at least one more fatality.
And that's just 2 high profile cases from memory.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
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In this case I have no idea what the outcome was, I saw a flare over rooftops and reported to the coastguard my location and the approximate bearing, together with my opinion that seemed close enough to have come from the Itchen.
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No sweat, in Southampton Water if give me the date I'll be able to tell you the outcome. Given the vagueness of your position do you still not comprehend the limitations of flares?
[ QUOTE ]
From memory, high profile rescues that have involved flares in recent years -
Hooligan 5. Keel falls off, no time for any sort of mayday as boat turns turtle, in February. The survivors take to the liferaft after managing to free it from the upturned boat. Rescued by a coaster which sighted their flatres with the skipper pretty deep into Hypothermia.
In that case no flares would have equalled no rescue until the morning at the earliest, so at least one more fatality.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hoolgan V? Read the MCA report! They forgot their EPIRB and as a result had to sit in a liferaft for nearly an hour and a half? Their first three flares were missed (one went dangerously sideways) and none of their flares were spotted for 45 minutes, and this was in busy waters.
A handheld VHF would have worked far better and cost less than a RORC pack.
Also interesting that you should have to go so far back to recal rescues resulting from flares - I need to go back as far as this weekend to cite a case of a casualty rescued following a VHF mayday.
In this case I have no idea what the outcome was, I saw a flare over rooftops and reported to the coastguard my location and the approximate bearing, together with my opinion that seemed close enough to have come from the Itchen.
[/ QUOTE ]
No sweat, in Southampton Water if give me the date I'll be able to tell you the outcome. Given the vagueness of your position do you still not comprehend the limitations of flares?
[ QUOTE ]
From memory, high profile rescues that have involved flares in recent years -
Hooligan 5. Keel falls off, no time for any sort of mayday as boat turns turtle, in February. The survivors take to the liferaft after managing to free it from the upturned boat. Rescued by a coaster which sighted their flatres with the skipper pretty deep into Hypothermia.
In that case no flares would have equalled no rescue until the morning at the earliest, so at least one more fatality.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hoolgan V? Read the MCA report! They forgot their EPIRB and as a result had to sit in a liferaft for nearly an hour and a half? Their first three flares were missed (one went dangerously sideways) and none of their flares were spotted for 45 minutes, and this was in busy waters.
A handheld VHF would have worked far better and cost less than a RORC pack.
Also interesting that you should have to go so far back to recal rescues resulting from flares - I need to go back as far as this weekend to cite a case of a casualty rescued following a VHF mayday.
Ariadne
Member
Just to add my tuppence worth here.
I do carry flares, and they certainly do have a place for SAR purposes.
As for keeping out of date flares why bother? We had the oppertunity at New Year (obviously not in the uk!) to let off a load of out of date flares, para's and hand held. I would say we had a 50% success rate of ignition! the rest all 'fired' but did not ignite. They were all dumped imediatly in a large piece of water for safety. Most of these were only 12-18 months out of date.
Close inshore in the UK & Ireland where people usually know what to do when they see one, a good second line of attraction.
Here in the Med' where people tend to do what they feel like without much recourse I'm not sure! DSC/EPIRB first then a flare to home inthe rescue craft would be about it for me.
I'll be replacing my offshore pack this year.
PS
Maroons are great for waking up sleepy watchkeepers on container ships!
I do carry flares, and they certainly do have a place for SAR purposes.
As for keeping out of date flares why bother? We had the oppertunity at New Year (obviously not in the uk!) to let off a load of out of date flares, para's and hand held. I would say we had a 50% success rate of ignition! the rest all 'fired' but did not ignite. They were all dumped imediatly in a large piece of water for safety. Most of these were only 12-18 months out of date.
Close inshore in the UK & Ireland where people usually know what to do when they see one, a good second line of attraction.
Here in the Med' where people tend to do what they feel like without much recourse I'm not sure! DSC/EPIRB first then a flare to home inthe rescue craft would be about it for me.
I'll be replacing my offshore pack this year.
PS
Maroons are great for waking up sleepy watchkeepers on container ships!
flaming
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this case I have no idea what the outcome was, I saw a flare over rooftops and reported to the coastguard my location and the approximate bearing, together with my opinion that seemed close enough to have come from the Itchen.[ QUOTE ]
No sweat, in Southampton Water if give me the date I'll be able to tell you the outcome. Given the vagueness of your position do you still not comprehend the limitations of flares?
[ QUOTE ]
From memory, high profile rescues that have involved flares in recent years -
Hooligan 5. Keel falls off, no time for any sort of mayday as boat turns turtle, in February. The survivors take to the liferaft after managing to free it from the upturned boat. Rescued by a coaster which sighted their flatres with the skipper pretty deep into Hypothermia.
In that case no flares would have equalled no rescue until the morning at the earliest, so at least one more fatality.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hoolgan V? Read the MCA report! They forgot their EPIRB and as a result had to sit in a liferaft for nearly an hour and a half? Their first three flares were missed (one went dangerously sideways) and none of their flares were spotted for 45 minutes, and this was in busy waters.
A handheld VHF would have worked far better and cost less than a RORC pack.
Also interesting that you should have to go so far back to recal rescues resulting from flares - I need to go back as far as this weekend to cite a case of a casualty rescued following a VHF mayday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
No one is arguing that anyone should reach for a flare before a VHF as a first choice method of summoning help.
The point is, they suppliment the other methods both in a pinpointing method and as a last resort method of attracting attention.
And Hooligan 5, they "forgot" their Epirb??
The boat turned over in less than 5 seconds, pitching the crew in the water. They were extremely lucky to be able to free the liferaft. The EPIRB would have to have been in the liferaft. As would a handheld VHF.
That's an awful lot more expense than a flare pack. And what's the betting a VHF packed into a lifeaft would actually work when you needed it?
[ QUOTE ]
In this case I have no idea what the outcome was, I saw a flare over rooftops and reported to the coastguard my location and the approximate bearing, together with my opinion that seemed close enough to have come from the Itchen.[ QUOTE ]
No sweat, in Southampton Water if give me the date I'll be able to tell you the outcome. Given the vagueness of your position do you still not comprehend the limitations of flares?
[ QUOTE ]
From memory, high profile rescues that have involved flares in recent years -
Hooligan 5. Keel falls off, no time for any sort of mayday as boat turns turtle, in February. The survivors take to the liferaft after managing to free it from the upturned boat. Rescued by a coaster which sighted their flatres with the skipper pretty deep into Hypothermia.
In that case no flares would have equalled no rescue until the morning at the earliest, so at least one more fatality.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hoolgan V? Read the MCA report! They forgot their EPIRB and as a result had to sit in a liferaft for nearly an hour and a half? Their first three flares were missed (one went dangerously sideways) and none of their flares were spotted for 45 minutes, and this was in busy waters.
A handheld VHF would have worked far better and cost less than a RORC pack.
Also interesting that you should have to go so far back to recal rescues resulting from flares - I need to go back as far as this weekend to cite a case of a casualty rescued following a VHF mayday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
No one is arguing that anyone should reach for a flare before a VHF as a first choice method of summoning help.
The point is, they suppliment the other methods both in a pinpointing method and as a last resort method of attracting attention.
And Hooligan 5, they "forgot" their Epirb??
The boat turned over in less than 5 seconds, pitching the crew in the water. They were extremely lucky to be able to free the liferaft. The EPIRB would have to have been in the liferaft. As would a handheld VHF.
That's an awful lot more expense than a flare pack. And what's the betting a VHF packed into a lifeaft would actually work when you needed it?
Gerry
Active member
Twice in recent years we have been sailing offshore. Once on route from Gibraltar to Lanzarote and once heading west along the Venezuelan coast when we have seen flares. Both times the weather was nasty and both times there were indeed boats in distress.
Talk of torches is naive, in stormy sea conditions it is highly improbable that a torch beam is going to be seen, sometimes its hard enough to spot the lighthouse beam!
Of course flares are not the first line of defense but I for one would NEVER sail without some in the boat.
www.gerryantics.blogspot.com
Talk of torches is naive, in stormy sea conditions it is highly improbable that a torch beam is going to be seen, sometimes its hard enough to spot the lighthouse beam!
Of course flares are not the first line of defense but I for one would NEVER sail without some in the boat.
www.gerryantics.blogspot.com
toad_oftoadhall
New member
You possibly missed this last time:
"No sweat, in Southampton Water if give me the date I'll be able to tell you the outcome. Given the vagueness of your position do you still not comprehend the limitations of flares?"
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The point is, they suppliment the other methods both in a pinpointing method and as a last resort method of attracting attention.
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As do electric lights - and they have all the advantages already stated.
[ QUOTE ]
And Hooligan 5, they "forgot" their Epirb?? The boat turned over in less than 5 seconds, pitching the crew in the water. They were extremely lucky to be able to free the liferaft. The EPIRB would have to have been in the liferaft. As would a handheld VHF.
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You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The EPRIB was normally kept in the grab bag. They had the grab bag with them when they entered the raft. The EPRIB had been forgotten.
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And what's the betting a VHF packed into a lifeaft would actually work when you needed it?
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You would have been able to check it when you put it in the grab bag/your pocket in the morning so it would be far more likely to work than flares which simply can't be checked.
Flaming, firstly, stop making stuff up - it confuses the issue.
Secondly, to prove the case for flares you simply have to do two things. Demonstrate that they're as risk free as electric light. Secondly demonstrate that they're more effective than the alternatives.
If you're finding this hard to do what does that tell you?
"No sweat, in Southampton Water if give me the date I'll be able to tell you the outcome. Given the vagueness of your position do you still not comprehend the limitations of flares?"
[ QUOTE ]
The point is, they suppliment the other methods both in a pinpointing method and as a last resort method of attracting attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
As do electric lights - and they have all the advantages already stated.
[ QUOTE ]
And Hooligan 5, they "forgot" their Epirb?? The boat turned over in less than 5 seconds, pitching the crew in the water. They were extremely lucky to be able to free the liferaft. The EPIRB would have to have been in the liferaft. As would a handheld VHF.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. The EPRIB was normally kept in the grab bag. They had the grab bag with them when they entered the raft. The EPRIB had been forgotten.
[ QUOTE ]
And what's the betting a VHF packed into a lifeaft would actually work when you needed it?
[/ QUOTE ]
You would have been able to check it when you put it in the grab bag/your pocket in the morning so it would be far more likely to work than flares which simply can't be checked.
Flaming, firstly, stop making stuff up - it confuses the issue.
Secondly, to prove the case for flares you simply have to do two things. Demonstrate that they're as risk free as electric light. Secondly demonstrate that they're more effective than the alternatives.
If you're finding this hard to do what does that tell you?
toad_oftoadhall
New member
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I really hope we do not see the end of flares, they are still in general a foolproof method to attract attention.
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Are they fool proof? Would you give a ten year old a flare to let off, handheld or Parachute? Would you let a ten year old set of the strobe off a life jacket, or push the button on an Eprib or use a handheld VHF? I once saw a woman knock the base of a HH so hard she pushed it upwards and nearly ended up with it in her face. Of all the ways to communicate a position and the fact assistance is required the flare is the least foolproof.
I really hope we do not see the end of flares, they are still in general a foolproof method to attract attention.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are they fool proof? Would you give a ten year old a flare to let off, handheld or Parachute? Would you let a ten year old set of the strobe off a life jacket, or push the button on an Eprib or use a handheld VHF? I once saw a woman knock the base of a HH so hard she pushed it upwards and nearly ended up with it in her face. Of all the ways to communicate a position and the fact assistance is required the flare is the least foolproof.
Danny Jo
Member
For extreme "survival" conditions, this would be my packing order (water, thermal and nutritional requirements aside):
EPIRB
Tub of flares
Hand held VHF in a 'watertight' bag
Edit: oops, nearly forgot the handheld GPS in a 'watertight' bag
I have a 12 volt searchlight that could be plugged into the Freestyle's electrical system, but I imagine that the electrics will be one of the first things to fail. I have enough difficulty keeping battery-powered everyday torches working in the marine environment, so I have not even considered having a powerful battery-powered one for emergency use. But then someone's going to tell me that one can buy zillion-candlepower, waterproof torches with batteries that last for years for 49.99 at Aldi or somesuch, I suppose.
EPIRB
Tub of flares
Hand held VHF in a 'watertight' bag
Edit: oops, nearly forgot the handheld GPS in a 'watertight' bag
I have a 12 volt searchlight that could be plugged into the Freestyle's electrical system, but I imagine that the electrics will be one of the first things to fail. I have enough difficulty keeping battery-powered everyday torches working in the marine environment, so I have not even considered having a powerful battery-powered one for emergency use. But then someone's going to tell me that one can buy zillion-candlepower, waterproof torches with batteries that last for years for 49.99 at Aldi or somesuch, I suppose.
flaming
Active member
I had missed that. I don't recall the exact date, a saturday in October or November if that's any help.
I've just been back to the MAIB report of the Loss of Hooligan, and have once agian proved that memory is not perfect!
You're right, the skipper did manage to rescue the grab bag. He also rescued the flare box. The report states that 3 of these flares were fired from the water immediately, but were not seen, and one went horizontally straight into the water.
It does not state whether this was a flare malfunction or the dificulties of opperating a flare whilst also treading water.
However the crew then lost the grab bag and the flare box sank. So no, they did not have the grab bag with them when they entered the raft.
It was only the flares in the liferaft, when they eventually were able to gain entry, that alerted anyone to their plight. The only 2 types of safety kit that could be suitable for storage in a liferaft are an EPIRB or flares. EPIRBS are still very expensive, and rely on external systems to function, with no way of the opperator to know if they are actually working.
In an ideal world I'd want both.
Disadvantages of electric lights are the requirement for a power supply - so either boat supply, or we're into the hit and miss affair of long term battery storage especially if we're talking liferaft use. A light will only work on line of sight, so a couple of miles at most from deck level to a ship, less in heavy weather. A parachute flare has a much greater range.
Then there are a lot of lights out at sea. There aren't many flares.
I've just been back to the MAIB report of the Loss of Hooligan, and have once agian proved that memory is not perfect!
You're right, the skipper did manage to rescue the grab bag. He also rescued the flare box. The report states that 3 of these flares were fired from the water immediately, but were not seen, and one went horizontally straight into the water.
It does not state whether this was a flare malfunction or the dificulties of opperating a flare whilst also treading water.
However the crew then lost the grab bag and the flare box sank. So no, they did not have the grab bag with them when they entered the raft.
It was only the flares in the liferaft, when they eventually were able to gain entry, that alerted anyone to their plight. The only 2 types of safety kit that could be suitable for storage in a liferaft are an EPIRB or flares. EPIRBS are still very expensive, and rely on external systems to function, with no way of the opperator to know if they are actually working.
In an ideal world I'd want both.
Disadvantages of electric lights are the requirement for a power supply - so either boat supply, or we're into the hit and miss affair of long term battery storage especially if we're talking liferaft use. A light will only work on line of sight, so a couple of miles at most from deck level to a ship, less in heavy weather. A parachute flare has a much greater range.
Then there are a lot of lights out at sea. There aren't many flares.
CT115
New member
Would all the people condemning flares as being so dangerous that they should not be carried please provide some numbers that support there case (injuries caused vs number of flares fired). I am sure that this would be a tiny percentage figure, much smaller than say driving down to the boat!
I know for a fact that in coastal waters the CG get numerous reports of flare sightings which are all taken seriously until proved otherwise.
Yes a VHF / mobile phone etc will be more useful in some situations as more information can certainly be passed the CG. I personally believe that high powered torch / light is far less useful for attracting attention / guiding rescuers in.
I would say that a high powered torch / light has it’s place in a yachts inventory as they could prove useful in some situations e.g. search for a man overboard at night etc.
Going back to the initial question I would without hesitation opt for a good flare pack over an EPIRB for coastal waters sailing.
I know for a fact that in coastal waters the CG get numerous reports of flare sightings which are all taken seriously until proved otherwise.
Yes a VHF / mobile phone etc will be more useful in some situations as more information can certainly be passed the CG. I personally believe that high powered torch / light is far less useful for attracting attention / guiding rescuers in.
I would say that a high powered torch / light has it’s place in a yachts inventory as they could prove useful in some situations e.g. search for a man overboard at night etc.
Going back to the initial question I would without hesitation opt for a good flare pack over an EPIRB for coastal waters sailing.
ShipsWoofy
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, to prove the case for flares you simply have to do two things. Demonstrate that they're as risk free as electric light. Secondly demonstrate that they're more effective than the alternatives.
If you're finding this hard to do what does that tell you?
[/ QUOTE ] I think what is going on here, though I would hate to put words in others mouths, there is a disbelief that anyone can hold the opinion that a torch is somehow a replacement for a parachute, smoke or hand flare.
Either you are being supremely naive or you are, as mentioned enjoying the position of being an obtuse troll.
You keep asking for examples that all of us know have happened around our coasts for years, centuries even, how about you show a valid example where a vessel out of sight of land, or even 2 miles from anyone, has summoned help with a pifco special.
Secondly, to prove the case for flares you simply have to do two things. Demonstrate that they're as risk free as electric light. Secondly demonstrate that they're more effective than the alternatives.
If you're finding this hard to do what does that tell you?
[/ QUOTE ] I think what is going on here, though I would hate to put words in others mouths, there is a disbelief that anyone can hold the opinion that a torch is somehow a replacement for a parachute, smoke or hand flare.
Either you are being supremely naive or you are, as mentioned enjoying the position of being an obtuse troll.
You keep asking for examples that all of us know have happened around our coasts for years, centuries even, how about you show a valid example where a vessel out of sight of land, or even 2 miles from anyone, has summoned help with a pifco special.
ShipsWoofy
New member
Are they fool proof? Would you give a ten year old a flare to let off, handheld or Parachute?
yes, they're 10 not retarded,
It didn't take long did it, 'what about the children', yawn
yes, they're 10 not retarded,
It didn't take long did it, 'what about the children', yawn
toad_oftoadhall
New member
[ QUOTE ]
I had missed that. I don't recall the exact date, a saturday in October or November if that's any help.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you were involved in an event you think saved someone's life and can't remeber the weekend? I'll draw my own conclusions.
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EPIRBS are still very expensive, and rely on external systems to function, with no way of the opperator to know if they are actually working.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cheaper than a RORC pack. Also they have a test button. Flares have no test button. Once you let them off you don't know if they 'worked' - ie did someone see and report an accurate position - with a handheld (or even a mobile which are used often for Maydays) you get a response.
I can't be arsed to reply to your other stuff since you're not comparing like-with like which makes me questoin if you're really thinking this through.
I had missed that. I don't recall the exact date, a saturday in October or November if that's any help.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you were involved in an event you think saved someone's life and can't remeber the weekend? I'll draw my own conclusions.
[ QUOTE ]
EPIRBS are still very expensive, and rely on external systems to function, with no way of the opperator to know if they are actually working.
[/ QUOTE ]
Cheaper than a RORC pack. Also they have a test button. Flares have no test button. Once you let them off you don't know if they 'worked' - ie did someone see and report an accurate position - with a handheld (or even a mobile which are used often for Maydays) you get a response.
I can't be arsed to reply to your other stuff since you're not comparing like-with like which makes me questoin if you're really thinking this through.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Would all the people condemning flares as being so dangerous that they should not be carried please provide some numbers that support there case (injuries caused vs number of flares fired).
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I'm asking for!
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that this would be a tiny percentage figure, much smaller than say driving down to the boat!
[/ QUOTE ]
I bet it's higher than the sum total on injuries caused by VHFs/Mobiles/EPRIBS & electric lights.
[ QUOTE ]
I would without hesitation opt for a good flare pack over an EPIRB for coastal waters sailing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're crazy. If you have to choose, the EPIRB is provably better. I'm not even sure you'd save much cash going down the flare route.
Would all the people condemning flares as being so dangerous that they should not be carried please provide some numbers that support there case (injuries caused vs number of flares fired).
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I'm asking for!
[ QUOTE ]
I am sure that this would be a tiny percentage figure, much smaller than say driving down to the boat!
[/ QUOTE ]
I bet it's higher than the sum total on injuries caused by VHFs/Mobiles/EPRIBS & electric lights.
[ QUOTE ]
I would without hesitation opt for a good flare pack over an EPIRB for coastal waters sailing.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're crazy. If you have to choose, the EPIRB is provably better. I'm not even sure you'd save much cash going down the flare route.
maxi77
Member
Certainly the average liesure sailor today has many more means of raising a distress call available to him than when I started sailing. My first channel crossing was in what was for the day a well found yacht abd we had no VHF, our only radio fixing aid was RDF, our signalling was flags and a 5" aldis and we had flares.
Yes today we have many more aids for both communication and fixing and they will all help if wer get into trouble and I would agree that a 406 Epirb especially with GPS is a far more efficient way of making a distress call than a parachute rocket. Flare and smokes do still have their uses for localisation and both do have a fuction that no other device has yet shown and that is allowing the helicopter pilot in particular to make a good estimate of the winf in your position, yes he will still rtescue you without it, but easier and quicker if you do have it.
Yes today we have many more aids for both communication and fixing and they will all help if wer get into trouble and I would agree that a 406 Epirb especially with GPS is a far more efficient way of making a distress call than a parachute rocket. Flare and smokes do still have their uses for localisation and both do have a fuction that no other device has yet shown and that is allowing the helicopter pilot in particular to make a good estimate of the winf in your position, yes he will still rtescue you without it, but easier and quicker if you do have it.
G
Guest
Guest
I'll admit to 'sitting on the fence' when it comes to flares. I can see the arguments for, and against.
My only contribution to this debate is that I was once given half a dozen 'double-ended' flares (orange smoke and red flare) for disposal, each of which came in it's own waterproof tube with O-ring seals on both caps. These were immersion-rated and designed to be carried on the person, being ex-SCUBA club items less than a month out of date.
I fired 'em up on Guy Fawkes night, but less than 50% worked as intended.
I don't know how representative this failure rate is, and I suspect many others won't know either, as there have been many posts on the Forum about handing unused flares over to others for disposal, but it seems to me that carrying safety stuff around to be relied upon 'in extremis', which may or may not work is living in a fool's paradise, and in a sense is worse than not carrying the stuff in the first place - at least with no flares on board you know beforehand that you're in deep pooh.
I wouldn't feel too good about using car brakes which are only known to work 50% of the time ....
I also think that manufacturers should have a 'returns' scheme in place for unused outdated flares, and a healthy compensation scheme for anyone who returns a defective flare up to six months after it's expiry date.
My only contribution to this debate is that I was once given half a dozen 'double-ended' flares (orange smoke and red flare) for disposal, each of which came in it's own waterproof tube with O-ring seals on both caps. These were immersion-rated and designed to be carried on the person, being ex-SCUBA club items less than a month out of date.
I fired 'em up on Guy Fawkes night, but less than 50% worked as intended.
I don't know how representative this failure rate is, and I suspect many others won't know either, as there have been many posts on the Forum about handing unused flares over to others for disposal, but it seems to me that carrying safety stuff around to be relied upon 'in extremis', which may or may not work is living in a fool's paradise, and in a sense is worse than not carrying the stuff in the first place - at least with no flares on board you know beforehand that you're in deep pooh.
I wouldn't feel too good about using car brakes which are only known to work 50% of the time ....
I also think that manufacturers should have a 'returns' scheme in place for unused outdated flares, and a healthy compensation scheme for anyone who returns a defective flare up to six months after it's expiry date.