Flares -v- ERPIB

malcg99 said:
Ancient: Fireworks have been around for centuries or even millennium. The design may be modern but its still a firework.
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Hollow things filled with air have been floating on water for centuries. I trust you have a hydrofoil.

Dangerous: They are little tubes filled with explosives, try taking to you local council tip to get rid of them.
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Of course they're dangerous. That's the point. If they didn;t store vast quantities of energy they'd be no good. Incidentally, my council tips won;t take car tyres either.

Inefficient: They have to be seen by somebody, there is not a whole load of technology on constant lookout for flares all over the globe.
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You seem to assume that to be seen is to be saved. That's a very, very dangerous assumption. If you hit a log off Anglesey and started sinking, would you rather alert (a) every vessel within sight or (b) a bloke in a room in Falmouth, in a bit?

EPIRBs are great technology when you can't easily alert somebody nearby - but "alerting somebody nearby" surely has to be the first choice.

Not that it's any skin off my nose if you want to eschew a simple, effective and well-tested safety device.
 
I worked on a yacht a few years ago that would conduct a safety training programme in the middle of the atlantic so we would let off about 100 flares of all varieties, letting all yachts in radio distance (as much use for) know that we were conducting an exercise.

But lets put your Flare Idea back on the table, We let off 5 flares at a sailing club with the RNLI training many years ago and the coastguard received 39 calls! Food for thought!
 
A quote

from Mr Bartlett's website:

''the yacht crew took to the liferaft, and triggered their EPIRB – which didn’t work. They were rescued nearly six hours later, when a passing ferry saw one of their distress flares.''

http://www.timbartlett.co.uk/Quiz answer 4.htm

I agree with Ubergeekian, carry everything you have space for.
 
expired battery/other problem?

Regarding the EPIRB that appeared to not work,

Brand? Battery exp? other?

EPIRB battery life is advertised as 5 years plus 5 years

On the other hand perhaps this was a locator EPIRB of the 121 variety and out or range rather than a 406?
 
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Before relying entirely on an EPIRB, it's worth considering the chain of events that happens when an EPIRB alarm is detected. Someone from the CG could be more precise, but my understanding is that because a very high percentage of EPIRB alerts are false alarms, the first CG task is to try and and establish whether an alarm is genuine. This involves checking with any notified contacts for the EPIRB identity to see whether the vessel is actually at sea, and this process can take some time. It may well be an hour or two before SAR is actually started. Quite long enough to for the vessel to sink under you, to drown, or die of hypothermia.

Therefore the idea that activating an EPIRB has the immediate urgency of a 999 call, a flare sighting, or a Mayday is false. An EPIRB will get you rescued (as long as it works), but not as quickly as the publicity would have you believe. And it may be too late.

For me, the real value of an EPIRB would be when sailing in an area devoid of other shipping, and out of VHF range of coast stations.

Having seen red paras used for real twice in my time sailing*, I can assure you that they are very visible, unmistakable, and they trigger an immediate reaction for the emergency services when sighted. I'm not sure a laser, red or green, would be nearly so obvious, nor would it be visible through 360º.

*One one occasion I was ashore in Eastbourne when I saw a red para well out to sea (daytime). I called 999 and was told that the CG was already aware, so that one triggered more than one alert.
 
LadyInBed said:
I carry a couple of strobe lights which would do the job.

No one has brought up the option of Laser Flares
so I will ;)
  • No gun powder
  • don't go out of date
Got to be the modern replacement for flares :)
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Mind you there is no recognised international standard, they need batteries, and they can still injure you, just differently to a flare. I have yet to see the occular hazard distance claimed for them. If you can see the light from a laser then it can hit your retina, and if too much laser energy lands on your retina permanent damage can take place.
 
parsifal said:
Good man .
By the way, does anyone know where I can buy an upside-down ensign?
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Blue or red?

The easiest way is probably to buy a normal ensign, cut out the union flag bit and the matching rectangle below it, then sew the whole thing together again with those two reversed. In an emergency you could probably use duck tape to hold it together again.
 
Ubergeekian said:
Blue or red?

The easiest way is probably to buy a normal ensign, cut out the union flag bit and the matching rectangle below it, then sew the whole thing together again with those two reversed. In an emergency you could probably use duck tape to hold it together again.
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What foolishness!!!! The Union Flag element of this procedure would be the wrong way up.....
Cor, some people eh?

No, the easier way to make an upside down ensign is to cut the toggle off the top and the loop off the bottom, and sew them back on the other way round. Then one can ensure that you have paid the correct respects to the best Ensign in the world.:p
 
L-i-B asked why not a laser.

1. Coz they're uni-directional, not omni-directional. So you have to know where to point it. Do you know where your potential rescuer is?

From the FAQs.
"I'm holding my Rescue Laser Flare® in the air and my friend can't see me. Why?

If you were to just hold the laser without aiming while slowly moving it back and forth you will probably not be visible to your target. Because lasers are directional lights, the fan of light must cross their line of vision. This is accomplished by first aiming at your target and then moving the laser slowly back and forth."

2. Coz no-one one knows what they are and it won't necessarily be recognised as a distress signal.

3. Coz it operates at sea level, it doesn't get shot 300 feet in the air, so no over-horizon visibility.

Not saying don't have one, just don't rely on it as a primary or even secondary mean of signalling distress. Very good, though, I suspect, as a homing device when the big blue and orange boat is on its way to you.
 
Regarding the EPIRB that appeared to not work,

Brand? Battery exp? other?

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/nedlloyd vespucci and wahkuna.pdf

The incident occurred on 28 April 2003. The whole report makes sobering reading on the uses and abuses of radar.

It was a Locat 121.5MHz EPIRB beacon. (They may mean Lokata?)

"The beacon had been tested in April 2003, and had then registered normal
operation. Since purchase it had always been kept below decks."

"The MAIB arranged for the locating beacon to be tested by a reputable
contractor, which discovered that the unit had not functioned despite being in
date, because the battery unit was badly corroded. The fault was within the
battery and was most likely to have been caused by a bad weld or poor glass-to-metal
seal on the cell."

Still convinces me that everything, flares, EPIRBS, DSC VHF, the lot, are worth carrying.

Even the burning tar barrel is possible, tho' I seem to recall an ex fishing boat slowly sinking in the Irish Sea; they took to the liferaft and as a last resort set fire to the boat. Several ships passed by and took no notice. They were finally rescued a few days later off the north coast of Cornwall and raised the alarm via a mobile phone!
 
Another vote for "all and every" from me, but then I would say that. :)

Flares are good, they really do work. They communicate position and distress over a wide area that is relevant to the casualty.

But then with PLBs down in price to less than 200 quid I cannot see much reason not to have both.
 
Mobile phone seems to be the way to go for mountain rescue these days. People have called for rescue because they have broken a nail or are late for a dinner party. Perhaps we should switch to using our phones only? :confused:

Flares don't work if no-one sees them, Epirbs have flat batteries, VHF may be in a blank spot, the tar barrel could burn you fingers, laser beams will blind the helo pilot & make him crash, Shouting against the wind is a bit like peeing into it. Whatever shall we do? I think I shall stay here in front of my cosy log burner and give up sailing if no-one will rescue me. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, the last (& only) time I was rescued, I wasn't making any signals at all. I was drifting in the channel, waiting to be swept into shallower water to set the anchor & sort the problem. But a fellow yottie came over to see what the problem was. He gave me a gallon of oil to replace the gallon that had just been pumped into the bilges & then tied alongside to tow me back into my berth in Caernarfon. I had intended setting the sails & sailing back, but the winds are fickle & currents strong round there & a tow was gratefully accepted.


Don't be daft guys, you need every assistance you can lay your hands on if you need help.
 
EPIRBs great for getting an accurate location and if there is still plenty of you to be seen the helicopter should see you easy enough providing the conditions are good.

But if the helicopter is busy doing something else and a life boat is on dispatched a flare will speed your rescue.

If you are in the water, a flare in the pocket might make the difference between life and death. Even with an EPIRB, a flare when the rescue asset arrives on scene will speed recovery.

I wear a lifejacket at work with a PLB in one pocket, a day night in the other.
 
boomerangben said:
EPIRBs great for getting an accurate location
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Well, not exactly. If your 406 MHz EPIRB doesn't have a GPS position, the position is stated to be accurate to a radius of 3nm, and a bit of maths will show that is about 28 sq miles to search . (That is considerably better than the older 121.5MHz - many still in use - which were stated as accurate to an area of nearly 500 sq miles)

Remember as well that there is a delay in accessing, downloading, and relaying the information via Inmarsat. Without GPS integration, you could be looking at 1-2 hours before the alert reaches your nearest SAR co-ordination centre
 
Would infrared glowsticks be an alternative to red pinpoints for showing your position to a helicopter pilot with night vision?

I imagine you would really stand out waving one of them, perhaps not dissimilar to a flare only showing a bright light for much much longer and without the pyro hazard.
 
Malthouse said:
Would infrared glowsticks be an alternative to red pinpoints for showing your position to a helicopter pilot with night vision?

I imagine you would really stand out waving one of them, perhaps not dissimilar to a flare only showing a bright light for much much longer and without the pyro hazard.
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The key problem as I see it is developing workable international standards for new indicators. Whilst I have not tested the impact of IR sources on search kit I suspect it would be effective. The current problem is that if you do not present the characteristics international S/R is looking for your chances of detection are reduced even if you have failed to switch off your own ID lights
 
Malthouse said:
Would infrared glowsticks be an alternative to red pinpoints for showing your position to a helicopter pilot with night vision?

I imagine you would really stand out waving one of them, perhaps not dissimilar to a flare only showing a bright light for much much longer and without the pyro hazard.
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Helo pilots tell me that they can spot a flashing light much better than fixed, so a strobe is probably a better option for locating the casualty once the aircraft is on scene (or smoke by day)
 
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