Flares -v- ERPIB

M

malcg99

New Member
Joined
6 Jan 2010
Messages
6
Location
We are in Cambridge and the boat on the East Cost
Visit site
Now here is a point for discussion. My set of flares is up for replacement for next season. But, what about the radical idea of ditching the ancient, unreliable, dangerous, inefficient pyrotechnic technology for something that actual works, and can be tested to see if it works.

A ERPIB is around the same cost as a decent set of flares and doesn’t become a dangerous disposal problem in a few years. I know that the white flares are there for ship scaring but these are replaceable with the modern 2 mega candle power rechargeable torches (again with none of the disadvantages of flares) which if shined on the sails are probable better.

Anyhow I lookforward to some views on this as I am off to the boat show soon to do a bit more research.

Isn’t it time people questioned the need for carrying a bunch of fireworks around when better distress communications systems have been developed in the last few centuries?
 
Ok, it is BH Monday on the Solent & everyone & his dog is out sailing in a white boat with white sails & your mate gets a clout on the head from the boom, or loses a finger in the mainsheet, or has a heart attack. Helicopter is hovering in the area, how do you let him know which of the 200 white boats is yours? An orange smoke is the recommended solution. Your torch would work at night, but risks destroy the helo pilot's night vision. A red flare is the recommended night time solution.

Your EPIRB & torch are reasonable for some situations - especially if yours is the only yacht in the area, but won't suit all scenarios. Oh, & make sure you have plenty of spare batteries & waterproof bags for them all in case you need to take to a life raft.

To put things in perspective, I do not carry flares, but I am aware that this adds to my risks in certain situations. However, I seldom undertake long passages & carry or tow a rubber dinghy which would see me get safely ashore in most situations- but not all!
 
Well I haven't bothered replacing my out of date pyrotechnics (ran out in Dec 08), but I did replace my EPIRB (as it was cheaper than a new battery!!). I now carry two 406 EPIRBS and an old 121.5 EPIRB, says it all I suppose. They can all be tested and all appear to be working.

I still have the old flares in the big yellow floating box, and I suppose if I had to abandon into liferaft I'd take them with me, but I wouldn't want to rely on them 100%. In any case flares aren't much use unless they can be seen by somebody else, and there are big wide bits of sea which don't have shipping lanes in them and once your over 10 miles offshore they will hard to see in daylight let alone a dark stormy night.

In my opinion EPIRBS, (DSC) SSB, (DSC) VHF and Iridium are far more reliable than fireworks!
 
EPIRB's and flares serve different purposes. One gets attention from far away, the other gets attention close in. Since they are complementary we carry both.

By the way, I would strongly suggest keeping a number of old flares when you buy new ones. I fired one of the big Pains Wessex orange smokes that was three months into it's useby date, it didn't work.
 
KellysEye said:
EPIRB's and flares serve different purposes. One gets attention from far away, the other gets attention close in. Since they are complementary we carry both.

By the way, I would strongly suggest keeping a number of old flares when you buy new ones. I fired one of the big Pains Wessex orange smokes that was three months into it's useby date, it didn't work.
Click to expand...

Deux points ici.

1) The Gendarmerie are also puffed up about out of date fireworks. Just as bad as none, apparently, so hide em away.

2) I let off some flares that were 9 years out of date, and they performed faultlessly. Just a statistical chance I guess.


I like my flares, and will continue to buy them.


..and my EPIRB is cuddly too. AInt going anywhere over the horizon without.
 
If I ever get into the position where I might need to fire flares or activate my EPIRB or press the Distress button on my radio, or dial 999 (or 112) on my mobile, or any of the various esoteric stuff with flags or sound signals .... I'm probably going to do them all.

I don't really care which one gets someone's attention as long as someone comes to rescue me.

And I don't think I agree that flares are "ancient, unreliable, dangerous, inefficient" technology.

Ancient? All are within 3 years of manufacture, hardly ancient - and the technology is constantly being updated. The new generation of flares is a design that is very modern

Unreliable? The misfire ratio is tiny. Compare that with EPIRBs - where the latest stats I've seen are that the ratio of genuine to false alarms is close to 9:1 (and to clarify that, it is 90% of EPIRB alerts are false alarms)

Dangerous? Possibly, but the risk is minimised with proper care

Inefficient? In what way? If a flare is seen, it's pretty obviously an indication of distress, and if seen from land usually results in numerous calls to the Coastguard.
 
There are many boats that don't have VHF (or don't have it switched on all the time because, like me, they get fed up of listening to "Radio check, please" all day long!). VHF is not a legal requirement for a small boat. People are obliged to help someone in distress as best they can but they are not obliged to kit out their boats for that purpose.

If you have no flares you cannot attract their attention, except perhaps by burning tar barrels or hoisting your ensign upside-down.
 
IMO, the ideal solution is the EPIRB, together with DSC radio and a set of coastal flares, they consists of two red HH for night time pinpointing and two HH orange smoke for daytime sighting. I just recently successfully completed a YM exam on my own boat, the examiner was a CG watch officer, he was quite satisfied with this arrangement. It should even keep the Frogs happy.

My RORC box of out of date flares is in the shed and will not be replaced. It will not be long before flares are confined to the history books together with the burning barrel of tar on the fore deck.
 
malcg99 said:
Isn’t it time people questioned the need for carrying a bunch of fireworks around when better distress communications systems have been developed in the last few centuries?
Click to expand...

EPIRBs are great as long as you are happy only to look from help from people who can be alerted electronically. When you're sinking half a mile away from a lock full of fishing boats at Crinan but waiting for the Port Askaig lifeboat, this may not seem such a good idea.
 
Good point

Searush said:
Ok, it is BH Monday on the Solent & everyone & his dog is out sailing in a white boat with white sails & your mate gets a clout on the head from the boom, or loses a finger in the mainsheet, or has a heart attack. Helicopter is hovering in the area, how do you let him know which of the 200 white boats is yours? An orange smoke is the recommended solution. Your torch would work at night, but risks destroy the helo pilot's night vision. A red flare is the recommended night time solution.
Click to expand...

I must admit I was thinking of a ERPIB equiped with GPS which would put the helecopter within 30m or so then I reckon hand signals from the cockpit would attract attention.
 
What regulation??

Twister_Ken said:
My understanding (which may be flawed) is that if you sail to France without a set of in date flares, the Gendarmerie might get a tad unpleasant.
Click to expand...

It would be great if someone could quote the chapter and verse of this Frence "regulation" and of course any exemptions for other distress systems. In my experience the French in general are very happy to use new technology.
 
Flares have to be seen

Ubergeekian said:
EPIRBs are great as long as you are happy only to look from help from people who can be alerted electronically. When you're sinking half a mile away from a lock full of fishing boats at Crinan but waiting for the Port Askaig lifeboat, this may not seem such a good idea.
Click to expand...

still got the fundemental problem with flares the they have to be seen. Fishermen tend to be avid users of VHF so that may be the solution in this scenario.
 
Doghousekeeper said:
And I don't think I agree that flares are "ancient, unreliable, dangerous, inefficient" technology.

Ancient? All are within 3 years of manufacture, hardly ancient - and the technology is constantly being updated. The new generation of flares is a design that is very modern

Unreliable? The misfire ratio is tiny. Compare that with EPIRBs - where the latest stats I've seen are that the ratio of genuine to false alarms is close to 9:1 (and to clarify that, it is 90% of EPIRB alerts are false alarms)

Dangerous? Possibly, but the risk is minimised with proper care

Inefficient? In what way? If a flare is seen, it's pretty obviously an indication of distress, and if seen from land usually results in numerous calls to the Coastguard.
Click to expand...

Ancient: Fireworks have been around for centuries or even millennium. The design may be modern but its still a firework.

Dangerous: They are little tubes filled with explosives, try taking to you local council tip to get rid of them.

Inefficient: They have to be seen by somebody, there is not a whole load of technology on constant lookout for flares all over the globe.
 
malcg99 said:
I must admit I was thinking of a ERPIB equiped with GPS which would put the helecopter within 30m or so then I reckon hand signals from the cockpit would attract attention.
Click to expand...

Watch a few episodes of "Seaside Rescue" some time. Rescue Helos are often trying to pinpoint the distressed craft amongst dozens of (to them) identical boats. Each & every one has someone standing in the cockpit looking at the Helo & often waving in a friendly fashion. Smoke flares also tell them the wind direction & speed quite effectively so they can plan their approach. Even Mountain rescue teams carry them for that purpose.

Is your Epirb position updated & broadcast continuously & does the Helo have a receiver, or are they dependent on the originally broadcast position relayed from base? If the latter, it could be half a mile out or more.

EPIRB works well in open ocean, but is probably not that helpful on its own in busy waters like Solent, Clyde etc or during race days!
 
You are correct, there are so many alternatives nowadays to flares that they will slowly die out. Pre the satellite age they were an essential piece of equipment.

Remember a forumite was seriously injured firing one off on land in optimum conditions.

The busy solent argument does not worry me too much, if there are shed loads of boats around you, you have some help at hand anyway, some EPIRBS can be used by the crews to pinpoint your position. But better still if you have VHF or are on the solent with your mobile you can give GPS coordinates.

There are possible middle of the ocean life raft scenarios to attract passing ships, but I have read too many "they did not see our flares" stories, to make me want a better alternative.

I am not saying they were of no use, or that they could not be used today, but there are so many alternatives that provide a better service, the cost / benefit argument is starting to tip against them.
 
malcg99 said:
still got the fundemental problem with flares the they have to be seen. Fishermen tend to be avid users of VHF so that may be the solution in this scenario.
Click to expand...

Of course that's a fundamental problem with flares. Teh fundamental problem with EPIRBs is that there has to be someone linked electronically to the central control room near enough to get you. The fundamental problem with VHF is that you have to have aerial, power and line of sight to someone who can help.

What's daft is to rely on any one of these to the exclusion of the others. Me? All three on board, and I'm trying to source a tar barrel.
 
An idiot brought some out of date flares to my New Year's Eve party, and set them off as I was finishing up with the proper fireworks (I didn't know he'd brought them). The orange smoke one gassed everybody (why he set off a smoke at night I do not know) and the red hand flare fell apart and burned him (not seriously). I was going to post this as a warning against out-of-date flares, and then I saw nct1 saying that even an in-date one injured somebody.

KS came without flares. I would certainly carry an orange smoke for exactly the "which boat?" scenario mentioned (perhaps a buoyant one so nobody has to hold it instead of doing something useful). I was planning to also get a couple of white ones for ship-scaring / nighttime equivalent of the smoke (yes red would be more correct for the latter, but I'm betting on rescuers already being alerted and just needing to know where I am), but since I also need a Big Torch perhaps that will do. Bear in mind that KS is not exactly ocean-going.

The "burning barrel" signal is not necessarily as daft as it sounds. The instructor on my VHF course had used it once, and rated it a genuine option to consider. He recommended putting a teatowel and some diesel in a saucepan, then lighting the towel (as a wick). Apparently it produces gobs of black smoke that are very visible, and you certainly look like someone having some kind of problem. If you need to damp it down you put the lid on the pan, and if it all starts to get a bit scary you chuck the whole lot over the side.

Pete
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top