Flares-again proof they work

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Lowestoft Lifeboat called the CG to inform them that they were about to fire white parachute flares as a training exercise. ... During the time that the flares were being fired the coastguard reported 11 triple 9 calls with an unspecified response on 16.

[/ QUOTE ] Which is proof that some people don't know a distress flare from a bl##dy firework.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
Lowestoft Lifeboat called the CG to inform them that they were about to fire white parachute flares as a training exercise. ... During the time that the flares were being fired the coastguard reported 11 triple 9 calls with an unspecified response on 16.

[/ QUOTE ] Which is proof that some people don't know a distress flare from a bl##dy firework.

[/ QUOTE ]

And also proof that they didn't need to know exactly what it was to come to the conclusion that it might be something the coastguard would be interested in.
Which I'd think would be quite reassuring to know if you're ever firing one near the coast!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lowestoft Lifeboat called the CG to inform them that they were about to fire white parachute flares as a training exercise. ... During the time that the flares were being fired the coastguard reported 11 triple 9 calls with an unspecified response on 16.

[/ QUOTE ] Which is proof that some people don't know a distress flare from a bl##dy firework.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter? at least the CG were called. Red, White or Green Flares seen at sea is safe bet that there are no fireworks parties going on and so somthing must be wrong.
 
Joining the thread, I think that the view of those who think that a red para flare will "pinpoint your position" is a rather romantic one! IF someone does see the flare, it will be high in the sky, no one can give a pinpoint position of where the flare was launched from, it will be a guess at best.

The OP tells us the CG had several calls when flares were fired, how many flares were fired and how far out to sea and what time of day, 3 flares, 20miles off shore at 0300hrs? Bet it wasn't. People speak of firing a flare and the watch on the bridge of a ship will instantly know where you are, pleeease! Are these the same 'duty watch' we complain about not being visible on the bridge during our channel crossings.

People say that a flare will instantly be seen, Oh yeh? How the hell can you tell a flare has been seen, you just cannot possibly know, no more than you can tell if an EPIRB transmission has been successful. But at least the EPIRB is 20 century technology.

Forget torches, flashing lights, the technology is not legally available in this country yet (red lasers), for guiding in SAR's. Forget also mobile phones. Carry flares if you must. But far more effective, put your hands in your pocket, get an EPIRB, ditch that old technology radio, get a quality DSC set, well installed, then equip yourself with a couple of orange smoke and a couple of red HH flares for pin pointing.

If EPIRBS were not the future why is Pains Wessex the manufacturer of one of the leading brands. Its because they see the future some others cant.

Flamming, just tell us again, from the previous thread how effective the flares were on Hooligan?

Just to remind you, toad of toad halls reply to your post:

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Hoolgan V? Read the MCA report! They forgot their EPIRB and as a result had to sit in a liferaft for nearly an hour and a half? Their first three flares were missed (one went dangerously sideways) and none of their flares were spotted for 45 minutes, and this was in busy waters.


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You replied stating that it was the flares in the liferaft that got them rescued. Lucky they performed better than the ones from the yacht, lucky, mmm.

My point is flares are not the panacea that some make them out to be, they are not the instant life saver some claim them to be, they simply are not.

In conclusion to my post. 100 years ago a ship has run aground off the Cornish coast and will be very thankful that his flares work, there was no radio then, if he is lucky his flares will have been seen and he will be rescued, but that was 100 years ago, times move on, move with them.
 
For the love of...

OK, I'm going to say this again.

Flares are not perfect.
EPIRBs are not perfect
VHF is not perfect
Mobile Phones are not perfect
Barrels of tar are not perfect
Signal flags are not perfect
shouting really loudly is not perfect
Waving your arms is not perfect
Satelite phones are not perfect
A ruddy great torch is not perfect
etc
etc


There is no single bulletproof reliable way of summoning distress. Which is why sensible yachtsmen carry as many options as they can afford. As I've already stated, most of my sailing is done with an EPIRB on board. And yes, of course EPIRBs are the future, and I don't doubt that they will continue to get better and better, and probaby something even more "help from the sky" amazing will come along and all of this is good, and long may it continue. Nowhere on any of these accursed threads have you seen me, or anyone else say "don't buy an EPIRB" or "Don't buy a VHF" or even "The first thing to do in a mayday situation is to fire off a flare".

yes, in the case of Hooligan one flare failed, although it is actually not stated if it failed, or was fired horizontally. And the two that were fired from the water did not result in immediate rescue. The fact remains that the liferaft ones did. And without them there would have been more fatalities. So the argument that flares do not lead to rescues in modern times is incorrect.
But of course I bet the Hooligan guys wished they had an EPIRB when they were in that raft, and a VHF, and a barrel of tar, and a sat phone and absolutely anything else you can think of to shout "we're in trouble, HELP".
But they didn't have any of that, they had a liferaft and its contents - one flare pack. And that saved their lives.

The start of your post demonstrates some missunderstanding on how flares work to summon a rescue. If all you have are some flares, the epirb isn't working and the VHF has packed in what you do is fire a single parachute flare. Then you wait one to two minutes and fire another. What this does is confirm to the slightly bleary eyed watchkeeper who "thought he saw something over there" that it was a flare, cos bet your life he's just been staring in that direction ever since. Then when the second flare goes up he takes a bearing and turns his ship towards you. Then when you sight his ship you fire a handheld and voila, the eyes are drawn to bright light and you are found.

Of course this is in busy waters, such as the channel.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Flares are not perfect.
EPIRBs are not perfect
VHF is not perfect
Mobile Phones are not perfect
Barrels of tar are not perfect
Signal flags are not perfect
shouting really loudly is not perfect
Waving your arms is not perfect
Satelite phones are not perfect
A ruddy great torch is not perfect
etc
etc


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that means you and I agree to some extent, as I said, "flares are not the panacea some claim". I used the Hooligan example as some people are saying more or less that flares will bring instant help, the Hooligan example shows that is not the case.

And dont be silly, barrels of tar are useless on a GRP yacht! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flares are not perfect.
EPIRBs are not perfect
VHF is not perfect
Mobile Phones are not perfect
Barrels of tar are not perfect
Signal flags are not perfect
shouting really loudly is not perfect
Waving your arms is not perfect
Satelite phones are not perfect
A ruddy great torch is not perfect
etc
etc


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that means you and I agree to some extent, as I said, "flares are not the panacea some claim".

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In which case I think you've been missreading slightly, as I haven't seen anyone claim flares as anything other than what they are, damn usefull if push comes to shove, and worthy of a place on any boat.

And you mean your boat hasn't got the built in tar storage and deployment device? I thought the EU made that compulsory in new boats built after the great distress debate of 1823! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
I would ask myself the question 'would I like to be in a liferaft without a flare pack?'

Personally I don't like flares one bit, but I still carry them.
 
Totally agree with you G.

I don't think we are telling people not to have flares if that is their choice or necessary for a certain certificate.

Nobody is saying they have never worked, but you can say the same about any number of 19th centuary inventions, it's just we now live in a world with satellites able to pinpoint where we are to us and to others, and electronic boxes that allow us to talk to rescue services direct, so we live in times where do not need to rely in explosives for someone to know where we are.

You cannot test a flare, but you can test the electronic communication mechanism, and there is danger with explosives that we would not tolerate ashore.

In any given danger scenario, there is a credible non flare alternative in this day and age.

To date, I have not seen posted a "we would have died had it not been for flares" post, (that of course could happen if you invested in flares instead of a life raft), but I have seen a "flares nearly killed me" post.

I am happy for my reasons to be criticized, but please, can we refrain from name calling.
 
It looks like these guys are happy enough to use technology that doesn't involve 'lecy (not to mention life rafts, life jackets, survival suits and personal EPIRBS)

Eighteen people rescued at night after their helicopter ditched in North Sea

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Fred Caygill, a spokesman for HM Coastguard, said: “It is absolutely comparable with the Hudson River and it may well turn out that the pilot’s expertise contributed to saving all those lives. We are all very pleased.

“Three flares were spotted by people on the platform. This helicopter had ditched about 500 metres away from them and they could see the fuselage on the surface and then they saw the flares. If someone has fired a distress flare, it tells you they are alive. Distress flares don’t fire automatically.


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More evidence

From MAIB report on loss of Sapphire

"Shortly after 1530 [1 October 1997], Sapphire capsized and rapidly sank about 12 miles from the Scottish coast, just north of Peterhead. Of her five crew, only the skipper managed to scramble clear and swim to one of the automatically released liferafts. The vessel’s Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon (EPIRB) did not float free and went down with the sinking vessel.

"The single survivor fired several distress flares, two of which were spotted by Elegance who alerted the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC) Aberdeen. A search and rescue operation recovered Sapphire’s skipper alive at 1746, but no other member of the crew was found."
 
Re: More evidence

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"Shortly after 1530 [1 October 1997], Sapphire capsized and rapidly sank ... A search and rescue operation recovered Sapphire’s skipper alive at 1746, but no other member of the crew was found."

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Doesn't 2 hours plus in the water indicate flares not working as well as the alternatives?

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I would ask myself the question 'would I like to be in a liferaft without a flare pack?'


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Steve Callahan had flares with him in his life raft - for Seventy Six Days.

...and yes, he fired flares at numerous ships.

If he'd had an Eprib chances are he'd have been rescued on day one. With a handheld VHF on day ten. (Assuming that ship kept a radio watch.)

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completely intransigent

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Intransigent? No, my position has changed this week, and partially as a result of these threads.
 
Re: More evidence

black-ball.png
 
Re: More evidence

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completely intransigent

[/ QUOTE ]

Intransigent? No, my position has changed this week, and partially as a result of these threads.

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Perhaps your position may change again, why not try Austrailia!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: More evidence

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Perhaps your position may change again, why not try Austrailia!!!!!

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Oh dear me, so you have to resort to being rude because someone has a different view to you. tut tut.
 
Re: More evidence

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Intransigent? No, my position has changed this week, and partially as a result of these threads.

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In what way has your position changed? I thought that you believed flares had no place on a boat?
 
Re: More evidence

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In what way has your position changed? I thought that you believed flares had no place on a boat?

[/ QUOTE ] Give the guy a break. Have you ever tried eating your hat? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: More evidence

I just wanted to understand what has changed, because I don't see it in his posts.
 
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