Flare gun vs handheld flare

A 6 second burn time? Not sure how much use that would be. Both hand held flares and parachutes burn for about 1 min I think
 
bedouin said:
A 6 second burn time? Not sure how much use that would be. Both hand held flares and parachutes burn for about 1 min I think
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Certainly not a like-for-like replacement. But do bear in mind you have nine shots, so about the same total burn time with additional flexibility on how you use it.

Usually seen as a man-overboard device, or for divers getting separated from their boat (which amounts to much the same thing). So with people already looking for you, and not huge distances, it's a good way of attracting attention to a head in the water.

Pete
 
The mini flares are for the 'last half mile', pinpointing your position to SAR assets in the area rather than the large area general alert of the parachute flare. Or for being carried in a pouch on a life jacket for use by a MOB. Their advantage is that there's a lot of them in a small space and weight, making them ideal for being carried on the person rather than in the flare box.
 
bedouin said:
A 6 second burn time? Not sure how much use that would be. Both hand held flares and parachutes burn for about 1 min I think
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I would agree having used both 1 inch and 2.5 inch signal pistols. 1 inch pistols are ok if some one is looking for it but otherwise thy don't last long enough. I wouldn't want to use a 2.5 inch handheld they are big and really nead to be mounned in a holder.
 
I have carried Mini Flares for 30 years. They fit nicely in the pocket, are waterproof and are both easy and intuitive to fire.

If a gun could be carried legally I would have one like a shot (so to speak).
 
Given the current hoops you have to jump through to get a straightforward FAC issued I would be astonished if you could sail that one past your Firearms Enquiry Officer. Note that the fees are just about to go up - think its going to be about eighty quid for a grant now, though its not set in stone as yet.

Section 5 is as I said "effectively prohibited" - there are circumstances where a grant will be made - pistols are used legitimately by slaughtermen, vets and the like. The thing is (and the law says) you need to demonstrate a need - its NOT a right. Good luck.

Another point - the "lockable storage" required is specified in (a lot of) detail in the Home Office Guidelines to the Firearms Act - and during the "home visit" your local plod will (or at least should!!) come and inspect this. In the last few weeks the police throughout the UK have started making unannounced home visits (yes illegal - but they are doing it anyway) to check the security of firearms held - i.e. are they actually in the secure storage. Or not. But it definitely would be possible to install a pistol safe in a yacht.

The question really is - is it worth all the hassle? The penalties for getting this wrong (in the UK at least) are somewhat severe.

BERT T said:
On the firearms legal guidance site Prohibited Weapons Defined by section 5 Firearms Act 1968 as Amended.
Section 5(1)(aba) any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm in length overall, other than an air weapon, a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus, e.g. handguns, revolvers;
As it is designed as signalling apparatus, it is not section 5.
Apparently the modern 12 guage signal flares can also be fired from an open choke shotgun.
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Very Pistol - Small Arms Licence

Just to be clear, there is no fee for a Small Arms Licence for a Very Pistol. Provided you pass the checks it is quite straightforward to get one. I know because I have one. Provided the boat remains in the water, and the pistol is onboard there is no requirement for a strong box. If the boat is out of the water then I believe the pistol must go to a strongbox. You need the licence to buy the ammunition, that is if you can find anybody to sell it to you in suitable quantities. Mine is 1.5 inch and seems to be almost impossible to find.

Yoda
 
Sot on.

In short, you must have your signalling pistol delivered straight to your 'ship' (yes, can be a yacht) or to an aerodrome. It must be kept in secure storage and when you no longer need it, it be removed by a company licenced to do so.

No licence is required by the owner of the pistol but woe betide anyone that takes it ashore as you'll be flouting firearms regulations and the police will be pretty direct when dealing with the threat. I'd recommend that your boat is at least SSR registered but to save hassle just buy the same flares as the rest of us...


GrahamM376 said:
The Act is a bit hard going, just done a quick scan but may have missed something.

It may be that no license is required whilst on a ship but is required if taken off it.

https://www.gov.uk/.../Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/

Ship and hovercraft equipment
6.51 No certificate is necessary to authorise the possession of firearms and ammunition
subject to section 1 and 2 of the 1968 Act on board ship as part of the ship’s equipment
(section 13(1)(a) of the 1968 Act). A certificate is, however, required to acquire. Under
section 13(1)(c) of the 1968 Act a police officer may issue a permit (form 115) authorising
the removal of a firearm to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies (but not ammunition) or
a shotgun, to or from a ship for any purpose specified in the permit. A permit granted by a
police officer does not permit the possession of prohibited weapons subject to section 5 of
the 1968 Act.

6.52 Although there is no legal definition of what constitutes a “ship” within the 1968 Act, in the
absence of a court ruling this effectively means a vessel designed to be ocean-going rather
than one for travel on inland waterways.
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Relax said:
Given the current hoops you have to jump through to get a straightforward FAC issued I would be astonished if you could sail that one past your Firearms Enquiry Officer. Note that the fees are just about to go up - think its going to be about eighty quid for a grant now, though its not set in stone as yet.

Section 5 is as I said "effectively prohibited" - there are circumstances where a grant will be made - pistols are used legitimately by slaughtermen, vets and the like. The thing is (and the law says) you need to demonstrate a need - its NOT a right. Good luck.

Another point - the "lockable storage" required is specified in (a lot of) detail in the Home Office Guidelines to the Firearms Act - and during the "home visit" your local plod will (or at least should!!) come and inspect this. In the last few weeks the police throughout the UK have started making unannounced home visits (yes illegal - but they are doing it anyway) to check the security of firearms held - i.e. are they actually in the secure storage. Or not. But it definitely would be possible to install a pistol safe in a yacht.

The question really is - is it worth all the hassle? The penalties for getting this wrong (in the UK at least) are somewhat severe.
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The 'hoops' are little more than are needed to obtain a passport. Indeed the hardest part is finding people of the necessary civic stature to sign the forms. Because the Very pistol is deemed a 'safety' item the fees are zero. My home storage is a steel ammunition box bolted to the rafters in the loft and fitted with a padlock. It was inspected when I first applied for the FAC but not since. Very pistols are nowhere near "effectively prohibited", I suspect the regime is probably less vigorous than it is for a shotgun.
You can't really 'get it wrong' because you have to comply with all the provisions before you can get the certificate which allows you to buy the pistol.
Are they worth it? Probably not unless Orion or similar becomes easily available in this country along with an easy supply of shells. In terms of usage they are far easier and I suspect safer than 'tube' flares which spew burning embers and have been known to explode in the hand.
 
the point made above (operator safety) by alahol is very valid.

Rocket flares and flare guns have quite different design parameters. Puff earlier questioned the height and burn time, and Orion give the following:-

ALTITUDE UP TO 500 FEET.
BRIGHTNESS UP TO 16,000 CANDELA.
BURN TIME UP TO 7 SECONDS EACH.

Of course, UP TO is a variable feast. :)


In a close quarter situation (e.g. an approaching vessel, or in a harbour or estuary) , a flare gun looks to have advantages as it is linked closely to the casualty. A parachute flare at 1000ft drifts a long way in a strong wind. A flare gun is quickly reloaded and fired (and costs less per round). Different performance envelopes.
 
sarabande said:
In a close quarter situation (e.g. an approaching vessel, or in a harbour or estuary) , a flare gun looks to have advantages as it is linked closely to the casualty. A parachute flare at 1000ft drifts a long way in a strong wind. A flare gun is quickly reloaded and fired (and costs less per round). Different performance envelopes.
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Yay! So I CAN use it to disuade the Romford Navy from buzzing my boat
 
sarabande said:
the point made above (operator safety) by alahol is very valid.
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The Orion pistols are plastic, so it's not clear to me why a breech explosion due to a faulty cartridge is inherently less likely than an explosion or burns from a faulty flare.

sarabande said:
In a close quarter situation (e.g. an approaching vessel, or in a harbour or estuary) , a flare gun looks to have advantages as it is linked closely to the casualty.
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A handheld red or white flare is pretty closely linked to the person holding it :)

Pete
 
handhelds destroy night vision for the user, and can dribble v hot product over the boat if not careful.

The chances of a faulty cartridge are very small; the line of least resistance to the ignition of the propellant is up the barrel, so unless there is an obstruction at the muzzle, a lateral distortion at the breech is also unlikely.


I'm not taking a prescriptive view of what is 'better', as the various safety flare products have different operating parameters. What I am looking for a quick, reliable and safe method of popping a red or white or smoke flare up a few hundred feet above a boat, not as a surfboard or as a diver.

I think I would rather trust an inexperienced or frightened crew member with a flaregun than with a handheld flare.




All these ideas are going in to a melting pot, whilst I garner info from Police, insurance and flare manufacturers. The conclusion may be that I invest in a wooden barrels of tar, a gun fired at one minute intervals, hoisting NC, or even raising and lowering my outstretched arms slowly, but technology moves on and it's worth exploring various solutions and 'fitting' them over the possible problems.
 
I have one of the little red plastic pistols.

It meets my requirement to carry flares. Readily available at local chandlers and hardware store.
They are RED star shells, Quite different from Parachute Flares.
Canada has stricter firearms laws than our neighbors. Even so as safety equipment there not fire arms. I could by a hand gun if I was willing to go through the training and registration requirements.

I don’t know if they are safer than the hand held variety but they are cheaper.

The law here require me to carry certain minimum safety equipment. Which varies with the size of the boat.
Mine is still sealed up in the plastic packet. In the drawer under the chart table.
 
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