Flag Etiquette -- concept of "Senior vessel"

Having rung out the old year and welcomed the new year, may I wish all on here a Happy New Year.

And especially so to all those who have replied to my original post. Later this evening I will go through all your comments, and, if I may, raise any supplementary questions that arise.

Thanking all of you for your time,

Plomong
 
And so to summarise what I understand about the matter:

A) Passing warships are saluted, by other warships of the same nationality, as well as by civilian vessels. Maybe "naval vessel" would be a better term.
B) Vessels carrying royalty are also saluted. Status indicated in the UK by the vessel flying the Queens ensign, which I believe to be an undefaced white ensign.

C) A yacht flying a yacht-club burgee salutes a vessel flying the flag of an officer of the same club.

D) Seniority of a vessel is that of her commander, not that of any other officer who may be on board, no matter how senior. Royalty is senior to any naval officer, and a yacht-club officer is lower than any naval officer. Non-naval vessels are of lowest seniority (don't have seniority).

E) Maybe we should say that the person (Royalty, Commander or yacht-club officer) is being saluted.

F) The less senior vessel is the initiator of the salute.

G) A government vessel that is not a naval vessel (Border Force, River Police, etc) is not saluted.

H) A vessel saluting a line of warships should salute each in turn, not the whole line as a single salute. On this, scottie and PumpOut differ with what Topcat47 implies., so maybe not 100% clear.

I) Warships of one nation do not salute those of another nationality as to do so has connotations of submission.

Comments and questions:
1) Point (I) seems strange to me as I always thought that a warship entering a foreign port would salute a naval vessel of the host country.

2) How is all of the above affected by where the two vessels are located: high seas, territorial waters, inland waters, entering / leaving port, transiting a canal, etc.

3) Where does the Royal Yacht Squadron fit in the seniority list ? I would assume as "Royalty".

4) How are vessels carrying royalty distinguished in other countries ? Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Burma, Spain, to mention just a few that come to mind.

Thanking you all for your contributions, including anecdotes and experiences.

Plomong
 
(A): Well they can be, but not all the time. “Nip down to the taffrail for the salute, Johnson, HMS Buggery’s coming past again...”

(B): A white ensign indicates a Naval ship; they don’t always put to sea with a Royal stowaway!

(D): No. If an Admiral is on board a ship, he’s not commanding it. That’s for its Captain to do. “Kiss me, Hardy.” But perhaps you mean the seniority of a flag officer on board the ship, not of the person commanding her.

(H): There’s a whole lot of fun to be had here. Anyone got a record? We must try a synchronised kite run down the fleet.

(3): Under your delicious supposition that the RYS ranks with royalty, your conclusion at (D) requires that all British warships, including ones with an Admiral on board, should salute any member of that private yacht club. Will you inform the Royal Navy of this obligation or shall I? Then we can let the folks in Cowes Castle know that there’s much more fun to be had if they turn East rather than West on their outings before Sunday lunch.
 
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Plomong said:
I) Warships of one nation do not salute those of another nationality as to do so has connotations of submission.

Comments and questions:

1) Point (I) seems strange to me as I always thought that a warship entering a foreign port would salute a naval vessel of the host country.

2) How is all of the above affected by where the two vessels are located: high seas, territorial waters, inland waters, entering / leaving port, transiting a canal, etc.
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ISTR reading somewhere (probably in the flag etiquette section of some yacht club's website) that boats (not warships) within the territorial waters of a foreign country (but not in harbour) should salute warships of that nation, although I don't think I've ever found myself in that situation. All the French warships I've ever spotted in French waters have either been in harbour or too far away to salute.

I saluted HMS Invincible, anchored outside Portsmouth harbour. The sight of a rating running down the flight deck to dip their ensign impressed my crew greatly. I subsequently read that the RN don't normally return salutes when at anchor in British waters although I discovered (after the event) that this was the day before the carrier entered Pompey for the last time before being decommissioned, so maybe they were making an exception to this.
 
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Angele said:
ISTR reading somewhere (probably in the flag etiquette section of some yacht club's website) that boats (not warships) within the territorial waters of a foreign country (but not in harbour) should salute warships of that nation, although I don't think I've ever found myself in that situation.
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The RYA "Flag Etiquette" book is on their website (but you have to be logged in as a member to view it). It says the following:

SALUTING

It is customary for yachts to salute the following: All Royal Yachts; all warships, both British
and foreign; Flag Officers of a yacht club when the yacht making the salute is wearing the burgee
of that club. (It is customary when in their own waters for yachts to salute a Flag Officer only
once a day).
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Plomong said:
...

3) Where does the Royal Yacht Squadron fit in the seniority list ? I would assume as "Royalty".

...
Plomong
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On my boat the RYS get saluted each time I visit the heads ! That they fly the White Ensign is an absolute insult to the Royal Navy, why on Earth Queen Victoria awarded these pompous, officious Wally's and Walt's this right I have no idea.
 
BelleSerene said:
(B): A white ensign indicates a Naval ship; they don’t always put to sea with a Royal stowaway!
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Of course, but a royalty-carrying vessel also wears that ensign -- that was my point.

BelleSerene said:
(A): Well they can be, but not all the time. “Nip down to the taffrail for the salute, Johnson, HMS Buggery’s coming past again...”
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Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean here.

BelleSerene said:
(D): No. If an Admiral is on board a ship, he’s not commanding it. That’s for its Captain to do. “Kiss me, Hardy.” But perhaps you mean the seniority of a flag officer on board the ship, not of the person commanding her.
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Yes, that is precisely what I meant, but explained rather badly.

BelleSerene said:
(H): There’s a whole lot of fun to be had here. Anyone got a record? We must try a synchronised kite run down the fleet.
Click to expand...

I would love to take part in such an experiment !!!!

BelleSerene said:
(3): Under your delicious supposition that the RYS ranks with royalty, your conclusion at (D) requires that all British warships, including ones with an Admiral on board, should salute any member of that private yacht club. Will you inform the Royal Navy of this obligation or shall I? Then we can let the folks in Cowes Castle know that there’s much more fun to be had if they turn East rather than West on their outings before Sunday lunch.
Click to expand...

Ooops !! I was confusing the Royal Yacht with the Royal Yacht Squadron. My mistake.
 
Angele said:
ISTR reading somewhere (probably in the flag etiquette section of some yacht club's website) that boats (not warships) within the territorial waters of a foreign country (but not in harbour) should salute warships of that nation, although I don't think I've ever found myself in that situation. All the French warships I've ever spotted in French waters have either been in harbour or too far away to salute.
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I believe the same, having picked it up from some course or other over the years, but have not found any printed reference to this yet.

Plomong
 
Angele said:
The RYA "Flag Etiquette" book is on their website (but you have to be logged in as a member to view it). It says the following:
SALUTING

It is customary for yachts to salute the following: All Royal Yachts; all warships, both British
and foreign; Flag Officers of a yacht club when the yacht making the salute is wearing the burgee
of that club. (It is customary when in their own waters for yachts to salute a Flag Officer only
once a day).
Click to expand...

A similarly-worded text appears in the MacMillan and Silk Cut Yachtsman's Handbook, 1992 reprint, page 219, Section 6.8.9, "Salutes" under Flag Etiquette.

Plomong
 
I’ve been watching this thread with interest and surprised that no formal RN reference for procedure has been made. I’m always led to believe such things are clearly laid down and assumed that as we are all discussing how the RN respond to dipping that someone would know the reference the RN use
 
Brilliant, takes some reading and understanding as I’ve no military background, there must be one hell of a filing cabinet on board to hold these as I suspose they cover everything. Do you have memorise or are people allowed to refer to doc?

I’m I correct that trigger for this is (if either be flying a Standard, Admiralty Board Flag or other distinguishing flag) which covers our ensign
 
I read it as the action is Alert, which is dipping the flying ensign when at sea. It does take reading a few times.

Bugle and pipe on Xmas list

Edit, but reading it again may be wrong, brain hurts now, please someone who really knows come along and help, so far lots a hear say and examples from times ago, again from our side not the RN side
 
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zoidberg said:
There's no signal I know for 'We're all right, thank you.' So what to do?
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You clearly solved your quandary satisfactorily, but for others' reference there is an established signal for "No, I do not require assistance": raise one arm up and slightly to the side, the other down and slightly to the side. This represents the diagonal line of a capital N. The opposite is both arms raised to form a capital Y. The most familiar situation that this is applied is to indicate to rescue helicopters whether you are the party they are looking for/whether they should land.
 
BelleSerene said:
Interesting that it makes no mention of responding to any vessel dipping its ensign. Was this abandoned with the Admiralty Manual of Seamanship? Is there really no guidance to RN vessels these days on dipping the ensign?

Perhaps I need to keep a bugle and pipe on board.
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Ah, now. For that, you need the previous chapter (see article 9138 para 2).

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/medi.../reference-library/br-2/BRd 2 - Book/ch91.pdf

A mine of useless information, that's me!
 
Dom, thank you.

Say, the reference (at 9138) is to ‘merchant ships’ lowering their colours to a warship and the warship returning the salute ‘punctiliously’. Interestingly, there’s no direction as to what to do when saluted by a pleasure vessel such as (I take it) you or (certainly) me. Do you think it’s left undefined in order to leave the compliment to the Captain’s discretion but to avoid HMSs being abused by flotillas of chuckling yotties?
 
Hats off to all RN guys who actually have to do this stuff, can see why people say the French Navy don’t seem to bother
 
Years ago, while entering Portsmouth Harbour in a small yacht, we dipped our ensign (as I always do and will continue to do) to a RN destroyer which was leaving port. She dipped in reply and I was impressed that all of the officers on the bridge turned to face us, stood to attention and saluted.
A week or so later, in Honfleur, I recounted this incident to a RN Lieutenant, who was skippering a combined forces yacht which had tied up next to us, and told him how impressed I had been that the officers had taken the trouble to salute. He made the very good point that, as we are not in a position to return the salute, it would be helpful if we gave them a wave so that they could stop saluting. He also said that it was not long ago that all RN ships would enter the name into their log of any vessel that did not dip to them.
 
Surely it is blindingly obvious that it is not appropriate or required to salute a vessel within the confines of a harbour where they most probably have better things to do than reply to the mischievous salute of every bum-boat, carrq, garbage scow and YBW feckwitted yacht that happens to pass by with a skipper intent on infantile mischief.

That, then, is why you DON'T salute a warship within the bounds of a harbour.
And why you might not expect a response if you are so dim/rude as to try. Even so, the Navy, being a Professional organisation will do it's damdest to respond even to those imbeciles if it possibly can, simply out of pure courtesty. Even courtesty extended to the sort of rsoles who try, pathetically, to elicit a response to a salute in harbour. That merely exemplifies the difference between professionals and amateurs.

Salutng in harbour? D'uh oh!
It isn't clever. It makes you look a total rsole - indeed proves it. In full public view.

Own goal, Lemmings!
 
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