Flag Etiquette -- concept of "Senior vessel"

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Plomong

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I'm trying to get my head around the concept of "senior vessel" in a situation where one ship is saluting another.

1) Does the concept only apply between two naval vessels ?

2) If a naval vessel of one state encounters two or more vessels of another state, how would the solitary vessel know which of the other nations vessels is the senior one ?

3) On the other hand, if I'm putt-putting into Toulon in my humble 20+ footer non-naval vessel and encounter part of the French fleet leaving port, which vessel should I salute: only the first, all of them, or just the "senior vessel". But then, which is the senior vessel? That carrying the most senior officer (who may or may not be in command of that vessel), or that commanded by the most senior officer. And how would I know which vessel to salute, being a small private vessel.

4) If two naval vessels pass close by on the high seas, is it the more junior one that should initiate the salute, or can either do so? If the former, how does one know it is the junior or senior vessel ?

The question is a serious one, so please refrain from comments such as "in practice, one would not salute", or such. I'm interested in understanding what should be done or occur, not what in practice and for good reasons, is done in real life.

Needless to say I would not under normal circumstances salute any naval vessel, principally so as not to inconvenience the crew !!!

Confused,
Plomong
 
Personally the only comment I can make is I believe say in an anchour age the senior vessel would be that flying the white ensign and therein lesser flags
 
I used to dip my ensign when passing shps of the grey funnel line and maybe 30 years ago they used to rush on deck and salute in return. Nowadays they dont bother - I guess they see so many little yachts that it isnt viable.
 
In 1995 I was working in Manila and I got a three line whip, issued I suspect to all resident Brits who owned a clean shirt and tie, to report for cocktails on board a visiting RN destroyer.. Two USN ships were in port at the same time. As the sun went down over the hills across the bay with cocktails in full swing, three junior officers met on the wharf. They were establishing which was the senior ship for the purpose of defining sunset. I thought it was by date of commission but Im probably wrong.
 
I would suggest that the visitors dip first and then perhaps go by flag rank ie Amiral superior to commander etc and yes each vessel in line gets a dip.
Most navies will know who they are likely to meet before hand and can check such niceties.
As a youth was quite adept at stealth dipping and had great entertainment watching poor sailors doing the ensign dash.
 
I'll do my best with these>

1. The tradition harks back to the days of when Britannia really did rule the waves. All Navies dipped to the RN, as an acknowledgment that to do otherwise, might well end up rather unfortunate for the non-RN hull.

2. In NATO formations the "Commodore" is clearly defined, outside of that one recognises the "home waters" ship usually.

3. Your courtesy flag would be more than acceptable, however dipping to all would be the answer, IMHO

4. This one is easier. All RN ships carry "The Bridge Card" in which is listed the CO, his/her rank, and date of seniority (ie promotion to that rank) It's a simple game of Top Trumps on rank. It's not the ship, more the CO that gains the seniority.

Again, in times of sail and hardy men, an RN ship, on sighting another more senior would hoist the signal "Permission to proceed as ordered". The senior would than have the opportunity to grant such permission, or to order the junior to a differing task. Evidently, now ships can be tasked and re-tasked by a single operator at a desk in North London this is largely irrelevant but, in essence, the practice still exists today.
 
scottie said:
I would suggest that the visitors dip first and then perhaps go by flag rank ie Amiral superior to commander etc and yes each vessel in line gets a dip.
Most navies will know who they are likely to meet before hand and can check such niceties.
As a youth was quite adept at stealth dipping and had great entertainment watching poor sailors doing the ensign dash.
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It is down to the seniority of each ships captain. Every RN ship carries a 'bridge card' which tells you the name and seniority of every commanding officer, a rather small document these days.
 
I did a comp crew Course with the JSASTC, many years ago. We were passed by a Nato flotilla, lead by a USN destroyer. Our skipper/instructor dipped to the first ship in the flotilla (a British Minehunter). We remained dipped while the whole group passed us. The Destroyer was a little slow on the uptake and the yeoman had to sprint from the bridge to the quarterdeck in order to dip the Stars & Stripes. All the others followed suit as the passed with the exception of the last, a French Frigate. A deck officer appeared on the bridge wing and flicked a V sign at us. When the other vessels raised their ensigns, we followed suit. The skipper was incandescent about the French response, but the students thought it highly amusing.
 
Plomong said:
I'm trying to get my head around the concept of "senior vessel" in a situation where one ship is saluting another.

1) Does the concept only apply between two naval vessels ?

2) If a naval vessel of one state encounters two or more vessels of another state, how would the solitary vessel know which of the other nations vessels is the senior one ?

3) On the other hand, if I'm putt-putting into Toulon in my humble 20+ footer non-naval vessel and encounter part of the French fleet leaving port, which vessel should I salute: only the first, all of them, or just the "senior vessel". But then, which is the senior vessel? That carrying the most senior officer (who may or may not be in command of that vessel), or that commanded by the most senior officer. And how would I know which vessel to salute, being a small private vessel.

4) If two naval vessels pass close by on the high seas, is it the more junior one that should initiate the salute, or can either do so? If the former, how does one know it is the junior or senior vessel ?

The question is a serious one, so please refrain from comments such as "in practice, one would not salute", or such. I'm interested in understanding what should be done or occur, not what in practice and for good reasons, is done in real life.

Needless to say I would not under normal circumstances salute any naval vessel, principally so as not to inconvenience the crew !!!

Confused,
Plomong
Click to expand...

1) Yes. Although clubs allow for (but pretty much never practise) the possibility of members saluting one of their flag officers.

2) As they are both foreign vessels, it has no business saluting either of them. And the other state’s vessels are hardly going to give away the location of their senior officer by parading it at the masthead (see (4a) below).

3) They’re French, for God’s sake. On pain of death, salute none of them. Seriously. That’s like asking whether an American should bow or courtsey to the Queen. And a French/ American/ British naval ship would not return the salute of a foreign-flagged vessel in any case.

4a) A salute is a mark of respect. The junior vessel initiates it, just as the junior of two ranks on land initiates the salute between them.

4b) In times of old, a Commodore’s or Admiral’s ship would fly a Commodore’s or Admiral’s pennant so the rest of the fleet would know to look to his masts for flag signals. These days, Them Wot Need To No are aware where the boss is, and he doesn’t wave flags at them anyway, so there’s nothing to be gained by divulging his location to an enemy.

Regarding your last remark, the only purpose of saluting any Naval vessel is to inconvenience the crew. How else are they supposed to keep fit?
 
Pump-Out said:
1. The tradition harks back to the days of when Britannia really did rule the waves. All Navies dipped to the RN, as an acknowledgment that to do otherwise, might well end up rather unfortunate for the non-RN hull.
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It goes back some centuries before that.

Even before Britain first claimed sovereignty over the seas in the early 14th century, to lower your colours (the practice then was generally your topsail) indicated surrender to the sovereignty of the other vessel.

From that time, foreign vessels were required to recognise Britain’s sovereignty by lowering their topsails. If they did, they could pass - no toll was expected - but if not, they may be taken as a prize. Later, when the practice of ensign-wearing became established, the tradition extended to taking in the ship’s ensign as well as lowering its topsail. So the junior of two vessels of the same nationality would lower its ensign to a senior vessel, indicating subordination. The senior vessel would return the compliment and they’d both sail on. But clearly it would make no sense to dip your colours as a greeting to a foreign vessel.

On settling with the Dutch in the 1650s, the treaty required that Dutch vessels continue to salute British warships on encountering them in British seas. And in the 18th century, a Naval King’s Regulation required that any foreign vessel should take in its flag and lower its topsail to a British one and that the British one should do anything necessary to make it do so - which obviously includes capturing it if it should continue to dishonour Britain’s supremacy.

After the overwhelming supremacy that the British victory at Trafalgar assured over the seas, a sense of noblesse oblige gave that Britain would suffer no loss of prestige by continuing to insist on this, so in 1806 the tradition was retained just between British vessels.
 
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I don’t know how Navies decide who to Salute.
I did think the Britannia was the senior vessel but could be wrong. I dipped her once and my dip was answered promptly.
Some people like spotting trains or planes, why is inexplicable to the rest of us.

I like dipping or saluting war ships. I like it when my salute is returned. Explaining why is probably pointless. Ither you get it or you don’t.
I took pleasure in having my salute returned by the Iowa. It was impressive. I also have saluted the CorralSea and her escorts
The original Ark Royal was decommissioned and scrapped before I had the opertunity. But I have dipped Invincable. Hermes, Feeerless and others I had no clue.

You can guess the big ones quite easily.

One pleasure was a line of French ships in the Sound of Mull why they were there is a mystery. They all returned my salute though. Caught the first couple by surprise but the rest were prepared.

Of course it’s suposed to be a polite courtesy. It sort of is. It’s also a source of amusement.
I find the USN very diligent in replying.
The RCN not so much.

I could consider them just rude. Actually I believe it’s a signe of a poor lookout if the fail to return my salute.
I sailed occasionally whith with a retired Captain.
He was not impressed, when our Salute was not returned. I understand the CO was asked about it.

I haven sailed in UK waters for many years. The RN used to be diligent about such things.
If the French give you the finger at least you know they saw you.:)
 
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Uricanejack said:
I don’t know how Navies decide who to Salute.
I did think the Britannia was the senior vessel but could be wrong. I dipped her once and my dip was answered promptly.
Some people like spotting trains or planes, why is inexplicable to the rest of us.

I like dipping or saluting war ships. I like it when my salute is returned. Explaining why is probably pointless. Ither you get it or you don’t.
I took pleasure in having my salute returned by the Iowa. It was impressive. I also have saluted the CorralSea and her escorts
The original Ark Royal was decommissioned and scrapped before I had the opertunity. But I have dipped Invincable. Hermes, Feeerless and others I had no clue.

You can guess the big ones quite easily.

One pleasure was a line of French ships in the Sound of Mull why they were there is a mystery. They all returned my salute though. Caught the first couple by surprise but the rest were prepared.

Of course it’s suposed to be a polite courtesy. It sort of is. It’s also a source of amusement.
I find the USN very diligent in replying.
The RCN not so much.

I could consider them just rude. Actually I believe it’s a signe of a poor lookout if the fail to return my salute.
I sailed occasionally whith with a retired Captain.
He was not impressed, when our Salute was not returned. I understand the CO was asked about it.

I haven sailed in UK waters for many years. The RN used to be diligent about such things.
If the French give you the finger at least you know they saw you.:)
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Was your French experience over 50 years ago ?
If so I may have met the same bunch with similar results
 
There is one valid use, which I'll recall....

'Once upon a time' coming back down the Irish Sea after a Scottish Islands Peaks Race, the mast on my friend's newish trimaran fell down. It was a dark and lumpy night, he couldn't recall if he was insured for that, so the pair of us winched it back aboard and stripped it. Easier said than done.

Somewhat knackered, I'd then addressed the kettle, and dozed off - to be woken by a scream of fear from Himself in the cockpit. Hitting every one of the steps with my panicked shins on the way up, I saw a large black shape pass our stern. This thing circled around us and the penny dropped that this was a big darkened submarine. We couldn't communicate - no handheld VHF, and no working masthead job, either. They were clearly concerned for our safety - or more likely, what we were up to - and I didn't want them to feel obliged to put some matelots over the side in a dinghy to come and ask us.

Now, I know all the RYA-approved ways of signalling distress - including burning tar barrels - but we didn't have a 'distress', only a whistling kettle. There's no signal I know for 'We're all right, thank you.' So what to do?

Good manners and etiquette responded. The penny dropped....

I clambered onto our sugar scoop and slowly lifted our still-fluttering ensign on its little jackstaff, then ostentatiously lowered it until it almost dipped in the water.

The bridge lookout crew on HMS Torbay ( it emerged later ) got the message and, in a huge flurry of spray she powered off southwards into the night. I dropped off a letter of thanks to 'The Commander' for their courtesy to Devonport a week later, and by return had a rather nice letter and a couple of PR photos of the boat.... which, of course, I gifted to our trimaran's chastened owner.
 
zoidberg said:
There is one valid use, which I'll recall....

'Once upon a time' coming back down the Irish Sea after a Scottish Islands Peaks Race, the mast on my friend's newish trimaran fell down. It was a dark and lumpy night, he couldn't recall if he was insured for that, so the pair of us winched it back aboard and stripped it. Easier said than done.

Somewhat knackered, I'd then addressed the kettle, and dozed off - to be woken by a scream of fear from Himself in the cockpit. Hitting every one of the steps with my panicked shins on the way up, I saw a large black shape pass our stern. This thing circled around us and the penny dropped that this was a big darkened submarine. We couldn't communicate - no handheld VHF, and no working masthead job, either. They were clearly concerned for our safety - or more likely, what we were up to - and I didn't want them to feel obliged to put some matelots over the side in a dinghy to come and ask us.

Now, I know all the RYA-approved ways of signalling distress - including burning tar barrels - but we didn't have a 'distress', only a whistling kettle. There's no signal I know for 'We're all right, thank you.' So what to do?

Good manners and etiquette responded. The penny dropped....

I clambered onto our sugar scoop and slowly lifted our still-fluttering ensign on its little jackstaff, then ostentatiously lowered it until it almost dipped in the water.

The bridge lookout crew on HMS Torbay ( it emerged later ) got the message and, in a huge flurry of spray she powered off southwards into the night. I dropped off a letter of thanks to 'The Commander' for their courtesy to Devonport a week later, and by return had a rather nice letter and a couple of PR photos of the boat.... which, of course, I gifted to our trimaran's chastened owner.
Click to expand...

Lovely story!
 
zoidberg said:
There is one valid use, which I'll recall....

'Once upon a time' coming back down the Irish Sea after a Scottish Islands Peaks Race, the mast on my friend's newish trimaran fell down. It was a dark and lumpy night, he couldn't recall if he was insured for that, so the pair of us winched it back aboard and stripped it. Easier said than done.

Somewhat knackered, I'd then addressed the kettle, and dozed off - to be woken by a scream of fear from Himself in the cockpit. Hitting every one of the steps with my panicked shins on the way up, I saw a large black shape pass our stern. This thing circled around us and the penny dropped that this was a big darkened submarine. We couldn't communicate - no handheld VHF, and no working masthead job, either. They were clearly concerned for our safety - or more likely, what we were up to - and I didn't want them to feel obliged to put some matelots over the side in a dinghy to come and ask us.

Now, I know all the RYA-approved ways of signalling distress - including burning tar barrels - but we didn't have a 'distress', only a whistling kettle. There's no signal I know for 'We're all right, thank you.' So what to do?

Good manners and etiquette responded. The penny dropped....

I clambered onto our sugar scoop and slowly lifted our still-fluttering ensign on its little jackstaff, then ostentatiously lowered it until it almost dipped in the water.

The bridge lookout crew on HMS Torbay ( it emerged later ) got the message and, in a huge flurry of spray she powered off southwards into the night. I dropped off a letter of thanks to 'The Commander' for their courtesy to Devonport a week later, and by return had a rather nice letter and a couple of PR photos of the boat.... which, of course, I gifted to our trimaran's chastened owner.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I couldn't have done that. My ensign comes down at sunset. :rolleyes:
 
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