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I know you can get a ready made storm jib to fit over a furled genoa, but has anyone modified a "hank on" jib that fits over a furled genny?
Any ideas gratefully received.
Andy
Any ideas gratefully received.
Andy
Fitting storm jib over furled headsail
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ruff_n_tumble
Well-Known Member
I have a "storm sleeve" from Kemp sails - a rectangular strip of heavy weight dacron with rings that correspond to the hanks on my storm jib, that folds around the furled headsail. See Kemp storm sleeve
I haven't used it in anger yet, only tested on the mooring, but I've got a feeling I may be looking into a spare forestay arrangement.
I haven't used it in anger yet, only tested on the mooring, but I've got a feeling I may be looking into a spare forestay arrangement.
H4B
Well-Known Member
I cannot see how any of these wrap around devices would ever work when they really have to. I really think its an inner forestay and hank storm jib, but it all depends where your sailing, a more practical and likely solution for most is deep reefed main and motor sail pdq for shelter
Talbot
Well-Known Member
I agree - seperate removable forestay and a hank on storm jib seems a much more viable option. I have always considered that the ones that wrap around the genoa are merely sops to the code requirement. and have nver heard of anyone trying to rig one in storm conditions (the thought frightens me)
tome
Well-Known Member
When you encounter conditions where you need a storm jib you'll laugh hysterically at the idea of wrapping something around the furled jib.
Inner stay - only way
Inner stay - only way
PIGLETSDREAM
Well-Known Member
Tried ours in anger, well F4, just to see if we could manage. First problem was once sheets rolled around genoa, none of the crew could reach to untie sheet. Second option was to gather the sheets and tie down towards furling drum, this worked ok. Storm jib attaches via 4 sail ties, impossible to raise as the ties caught in the furls of the genoa. Eventually managed to raise jib, using just one tie, we managed 3 knts to windward with 3 reefs in main and the storm jib. Could we have done it in a storm, hopefully we wouldn't have waited that long, but No is probably true.
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Inner forestay it is then. I don't relish the idea of another obstacle at the mast but I suppose there is no point having something that won't work when you need it.
Thanks for all advice
Andy
Thanks for all advice
Andy
Robin
Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be an obstacle if it is made as removeable and parked near the shrouds when not in use. The simplest method is to fit one close to the mast head so that it is supported by the existing backstay and doesn't need runners. If you are really lucky too it can be attached to the bow fitting and still just clear the roller drum, otherwise you will need a new fitting to a reinforced area of the deck, say by the anchor locker bulkhead. You need to make it easy(!) to fit in anger, it helps to have a loop to grip whilst the end is being attached for example and drop nosed pins or shackles with captive pins rather than clevis pins with split pins or rings. It needs to be made short enough in the main part that it can be moved aft for stowage and tensioned there, perhaps with a small tackle. Tensioning it in situ needs either expensive overcentre tensioners or proprietary screw tensioners or it is possible to make one from a good quality bottlescrew with 'wing' handles welded on to provide leverage.
On the other hand you could manage as most do with the deeply rolled genoa. OK you will not point very well upwind but the seas will prevent that any way, in any other direction it will work fine. Upwind if you really really had to go that way can be done by tacking with a triple reefed main and motor, off the wind the reefed main will work on most boats as also will bare poles. That may sound like heresy in these parts but it is also realistic as most people with small or family crew (me included) will not relish the thought of the foredeck job to fit the storm stay and jib and will use what is there, deeply rolled or rolled away altogether.
Robin
On the other hand you could manage as most do with the deeply rolled genoa. OK you will not point very well upwind but the seas will prevent that any way, in any other direction it will work fine. Upwind if you really really had to go that way can be done by tacking with a triple reefed main and motor, off the wind the reefed main will work on most boats as also will bare poles. That may sound like heresy in these parts but it is also realistic as most people with small or family crew (me included) will not relish the thought of the foredeck job to fit the storm stay and jib and will use what is there, deeply rolled or rolled away altogether.
Robin
jerryat
Well-Known Member
That's the only sensible way as others have said.
Do make sure that the deck attachment point is properly reinforced though. This usually means at least backing up the fitting underdeck (additional reinforement/backing pads) but preferably then fitting an attachment from the underside of this to a strong point on the hull. This ensures that no strain is taken by the deck itself.
For example, in our boat, the new forestay is attached to a 'U' bolt plate, 'back to back' bolted to an indentical plate on the underside. The inner plate is then attached via an adjustable wire strop to a s/s loop heavily laminated to the stem.
As the strop is so far forward, the berths are unaffected. The strop is detachable, as is the forestay, as we only fit them when on reasonably long passages.
As Talbot rightly says, the thought of rigging one in storm conditions ........ just doesn't bear thinking about.
Do make sure that the deck attachment point is properly reinforced though. This usually means at least backing up the fitting underdeck (additional reinforement/backing pads) but preferably then fitting an attachment from the underside of this to a strong point on the hull. This ensures that no strain is taken by the deck itself.
For example, in our boat, the new forestay is attached to a 'U' bolt plate, 'back to back' bolted to an indentical plate on the underside. The inner plate is then attached via an adjustable wire strop to a s/s loop heavily laminated to the stem.
As the strop is so far forward, the berths are unaffected. The strop is detachable, as is the forestay, as we only fit them when on reasonably long passages.
As Talbot rightly says, the thought of rigging one in storm conditions ........ just doesn't bear thinking about.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
I fitted a movable inner fore-stay to Bambola when I first had her - block shackled onto the u bolt so that when you attached the head of the sail to the halyard as you hauled up the sail it tensioned the fore-stay - pretty easy and effective BUT
In 50,000 odd miles I never used it! BECAUSE
In the relatively few occasions it got really bad I would have got to the 3 reefs in the main and small amount of genny unfurled and bloody great waves sweeping over the bows now and then. Wild horses would not get me on that foredeck unless it was really essential. I would end up with a tiny tiny bit of furling genny out - a couple of feet or so and deeply reefed main - worked for me...
Sometime before it got to the too horrid on the foredeck situation I would have rigged the parachute sea anchor which could then be launched from the comparative security of the cockpit...
In 50,000 odd miles I never used it! BECAUSE
In the relatively few occasions it got really bad I would have got to the 3 reefs in the main and small amount of genny unfurled and bloody great waves sweeping over the bows now and then. Wild horses would not get me on that foredeck unless it was really essential. I would end up with a tiny tiny bit of furling genny out - a couple of feet or so and deeply reefed main - worked for me...
Sometime before it got to the too horrid on the foredeck situation I would have rigged the parachute sea anchor which could then be launched from the comparative security of the cockpit...
DaveS
Well-Known Member
I would agree with almost all of that, but would differ on one point. Downwind in heavy conditions, if bare poles give less than 4 knots or so, I prefer to unroll just enough genoa to get near to hull speed and keep the main furled. It feels much more controlled and largely avoids gybe worries.
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with almost all of that, but would differ on one point. Downwind in heavy conditions, if bare poles give less than 4 knots or so, I prefer to unroll just enough genoa to get near to hull speed and keep the main furled. It feels much more controlled and largely avoids gybe worries.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I agree with you, having re-read what I said it appears to favour the main downwind rather than the headsail which I didn't mean. For sure going downwind I would prefer the main put away totally and just use a small amount of roller genoa to keep the boat moving well. I was trying to say that the storm jib per se was realistically unlikely to be used except maybe by a fullly crewed raceboat going upwind, the rest of us mere mortals would opt for simpler and safer!
Robin
I would agree with almost all of that, but would differ on one point. Downwind in heavy conditions, if bare poles give less than 4 knots or so, I prefer to unroll just enough genoa to get near to hull speed and keep the main furled. It feels much more controlled and largely avoids gybe worries.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I agree with you, having re-read what I said it appears to favour the main downwind rather than the headsail which I didn't mean. For sure going downwind I would prefer the main put away totally and just use a small amount of roller genoa to keep the boat moving well. I was trying to say that the storm jib per se was realistically unlikely to be used except maybe by a fullly crewed raceboat going upwind, the rest of us mere mortals would opt for simpler and safer!
Robin
Swagman
Well-Known Member
Agree with all the points made. I've one of the sleeved jobs but as others has said - its a sop to the 'rules' and not something I'll ever consider putting up.
I've had inner forestays fitted for regular hanked storm sails on past yachts - but actually never used those either despite encountering storm conditions.
Three reefs in the main of my boat and she's pretty well balanced in stronger winds even without a headsail - and on the last where the main was not so balanced alone - the addition use of engine power always did the trick.
JOHN
I've had inner forestays fitted for regular hanked storm sails on past yachts - but actually never used those either despite encountering storm conditions.
Three reefs in the main of my boat and she's pretty well balanced in stronger winds even without a headsail - and on the last where the main was not so balanced alone - the addition use of engine power always did the trick.
JOHN
ChrisE
Well-Known Member
I'd go with a removable inner forestay, if only for the reason that it makes a good backup if the forestay goes.
DaveS
Well-Known Member
On a practical point, while Etaps' construction has many advantages, it does make it quite difficult to get at the underlying structure to add new load bearing fittings. I have thought about fitting an attachment point for a detachable inner forestay, but haven't worked out how to do it. Any Etap owners out there who have succeded? (I'll post this on the owners' association website too.)
twisterkai
Well-Known Member
As others have stated, I too would go for the removable inner forestay, but also like others, I'm not sure about fitting it when the weather turns nasty. If you do go for one, the fitting needs to be within 12-18" of the mast head to avoid having to fit running backstays or similar. As a rule of thumb (as explained by a rigger) if you take a line from the backstay attachment at the mast head down to the foredeck where you intend to fit a U bolt, the inner forestay attachment should be above the point on the mast where that line crosses the front face - if it's a mast head rig. Hope that makes sense. If it's a fractional rig I'd imagine the same rule could apply, except instead of the backstay reference, it would probably be the cap shrouds - or whatever supported the current forestay. If the mast was fitted with aft intermediates, the fitting could also be in that area.
Also, if you have an inner forestay, for long down wind passages you could also fly a second headsail instead of a spinnaker etc and get rid of the main thus avoiding gybes.
Also, if you have an inner forestay, for long down wind passages you could also fly a second headsail instead of a spinnaker etc and get rid of the main thus avoiding gybes.
jerryat
Well-Known Member
"" Also, if you have an inner forestay, for long down wind passages you could also fly a second headsail instead of a spinnaker etc and get rid of the main thus avoiding gybes. ""
Yep, we've used ours for this on several trips!! Like others, we've weathered several lots of lumpy stuff using a well-reefed genny alone. Mind you, we tend head downwind till things moderate (room permitting) rather than bash into headseas, so we haven't yet used our inner forestay in anger i.e. with the storm jib.
As Chris E rightly implies, it's in conditions like these that it's a huge comfort to know you've a back-up if the main forestay goes. We wouldn't now even consider doing another transat without one.
Yep, we've used ours for this on several trips!! Like others, we've weathered several lots of lumpy stuff using a well-reefed genny alone. Mind you, we tend head downwind till things moderate (room permitting) rather than bash into headseas, so we haven't yet used our inner forestay in anger i.e. with the storm jib.
As Chris E rightly implies, it's in conditions like these that it's a huge comfort to know you've a back-up if the main forestay goes. We wouldn't now even consider doing another transat without one.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
Also, if you have an inner fore-stay, for long down wind passages you could also fly a second head-sail instead of a spinnaker etc and get rid of the main thus avoiding gybes.
I think you are right about the twin head-sails rather than a spinnaker and I have done thousands of miles like that. However I never bother to hank on the 2nd head-sail (even though I could have set up the inner fore-stay as posted earlier. I always just hoisted the 2nd genny on the spinnaker halyard and sweated it up real hard and the gap between the two boomed out head-sails seldom exceeded a few inches in the middle.
When the wind gets up going down wind you reduce sail area and then of course you take down the 2nd jenny and run under only one boomed out. So there are never extremes of wind to make the gap between the roller furled and the Non hanked on genny significant.
I also carry a spinnaker but for light airs up to 12-15knots max.
I think you are right about the twin head-sails rather than a spinnaker and I have done thousands of miles like that. However I never bother to hank on the 2nd head-sail (even though I could have set up the inner fore-stay as posted earlier. I always just hoisted the 2nd genny on the spinnaker halyard and sweated it up real hard and the gap between the two boomed out head-sails seldom exceeded a few inches in the middle.
When the wind gets up going down wind you reduce sail area and then of course you take down the 2nd jenny and run under only one boomed out. So there are never extremes of wind to make the gap between the roller furled and the Non hanked on genny significant.
I also carry a spinnaker but for light airs up to 12-15knots max.
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What a result! I have now been persuaded to manage with my rolled genoa, based on mostly sailing short-handed and the associated difficulties of storm jib deployment. Piggy bank lives to see another day. Good tip from E ex B using spinny halyard for 2nd headsail which I will try.
Thanks again
Andy
Thanks again
Andy
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Agree that the foredeck is not the place to be if the conditions require the storm job to be rigged, so E-ex-B is right.
However, you can use an inner forestay for more than just a storm jib. If you are setting off on a passage which might be a bit blowy, you can prepare the inner forestay before setting off then hoist a smaller job, eg No2, and probably sail better and more safely than having a partly furled genoa.
So the inner forestay offers a number of options.
However, you can use an inner forestay for more than just a storm jib. If you are setting off on a passage which might be a bit blowy, you can prepare the inner forestay before setting off then hoist a smaller job, eg No2, and probably sail better and more safely than having a partly furled genoa.
So the inner forestay offers a number of options.