Firming second hand prices?

[Nigelpickin]

Nigelpicken
Did you see post no 28 re discount

Yep, I’d have to get the books out to get the full detail of the deal but there was some messing with vat on top of that.
My point is just a simple one tho’ which is that I accept that the list price is just a starting point, I’d just prefer it if that were not the case. Put simply, how can I assess the value a used boat versus a new example if boat yards are selling with gagging orders!?
Fear of missing out on a great price is a thing and one that apparently I’ve fallen victim of!

 

[superheat6k]

An interesting discussion, from a fairly narrow economic perspective, generally by folk who operate perfectly rationally in their professional lives and completely irrationally when it comes to their hobby, i.e. boating.

The £ GBP has been thoroughly punished for daring to defy the requirements of the German controlled EU by stating we will leave the club. The short term result of this is that the low £ has made UK boats valuable acquisitions for the European market, very possibly explaining the 'firming' Jed observes.

But it is amazing how much speculation is now built in to this.

If Brexit goes well then the £ GBP will recover and this will weaken exports, including secondhand boats, this will make used boat prices fall until enough have the money to buy again.

If it doesn't then likely none of us will be able to afford boats anymore anyway, affording food will be questionable for many.

Then there is the scenario that the European economy will itself nose dive as the bubble it is riding bursts. The under tone of this thread is that of an impending tumble of a bubble market about to burst. There is nothing observable within the EU economy to suggest long term good news - increasingly larger economies are in the toilet, except one of course, and they have little coast and less reputation for boating activities - above the surface that is (save one or two notable manufacturers) and closer to home just look at the actions recently of southern France to extract every Euro they can from those perceived to have money by what are perceived to be unfair taxes on the wealthy. Many are taking flight to places not taking every last Euro off them just because they own a boat

For me I see no point in tying up a sum of money that will buy a decent house in any boat, when I balance this against the time available to enjoy such a plummeting asset, especially when the risk factor of a crash some way or another is taken into account.

Each to his own, but not sure I would not get that excited about buying at full list price a boat of any make presently.

 

[Nigelpickin]

An interesting discussion, from a fairly narrow economic perspective, generally by folk who operate perfectly rationally in their professional lives and completely irrationally when it comes to their hobby, i.e. boating.

I can’t think of anything more rational than spending money on the things that bring the most enjoyment.

But I’m lucky to be retired young and to be married to a like minded soul who loves the adventure...we’ll let the children worry about the depreciation

 

[henryf]

Henry you must have forgot what I do for a living....

.....seriously Henry please don't lecture me.

It was your profession which prompted my post Paul. I felt really sad to hear you say you were waiting for the next downturn, willining the industry to return to how it was a few years ago.

In the same breath you say things are really good for you at the moment. Confusing.

I wear two hats. One a keen boater who enjoys all the pastime offers, the other a commercial operator of a motor boat charter operation. In both instances I welcome a strong, healthy and sustainable industry. I don't hold your view that things have to go in cycles.

I would love to see strong prices remain and I dream of a time when we all know what boats are actually worth. Please don't see my comments as lecturing you, I was commenting on the window of insight you offered into the industry as a whole.

Someone asked whether it was possible to accurately price supercars. The answer is yes. I can say that most of the Porsche's we sell make their advertised prices. We deal in real numbers and find open pricing works best. I'm not saying there aren't people who ask silly money but it isn't hard to weed them out when doing your homework.

Henry

 

[[2068]]

The problem with buying in a rising market comes about if you don't complete the upgrade process quickly enough.

You've sold your own boat.
You hunt for the upgrade, but the first couple don't cut the mustard, so you wait for a bit ...
... and Oh Dear, the decent examples of that boat that do appear, are pushed out of budget or more scarce, and you are left looking at even tattier examples.

At this point you have fallen off the boating ladder, and have some fairly stark choices:
- Raid Mrs FP's "house extension" fund and suffer a domestic popularity failure.
- Lower your sights to look at a cheaper boat, but that might not be such a great upgrade.
- Wait for the market to come down so that boat you really want comes back into reach, but the amount of time is "unknown", and none of us are getting any younger

 

[rubberduck]

We have brokers fighting over selling our current boat, but strangely none seem to want to discuss rates. The boat industry, as ever, moves very slowly.

 

[Momac]

For me I see no point in tying up a sum of money that will buy a decent house in any boat.

Depends how you measure value for money . I consider the boat to be the best investment I have ever made.
My present boat cost almost as much as my house (although there are quite a few years between the purchase dates).

 

[oldgit]

At the lower end of the UK market it is becoming harder to find decent boat with only not so good stuff still around. Was actively searching EU market to source boat as UK examples were well over priced even taking into account shipping back to UK.
It was easier/cheaper to get to Spain than Wales.
That all changed overnight..

Boaty chum with a P46 has just sold his boat in Majorca. He had no problems selling it for virtually the asking price, it was absolute peach, a fortune spent and virtually no use.
He got out just in time,with the total collapse in the pound, his mooring fees would have virtually doubled as would his running costs etc.
One of the reasons it sold so quickly was it had a berth, a return to the old old situation.

Regards boaters going where ever it is most economical to keep keep a boat.
Cala D Or, is perhaps a good indicator of the waxing and waning of Europes fortunes.
On first visits a decade or two ago, it was always jammed full and virtually impossible to get a mooring, especially if you were not able to actually go down and plead your case in person.
A suprising number of boats , to me, were UK registered.
Over the years noticable voids started to appear, increasing as time went on as folks possibly fled east.
Recently, however the gaps are starting to fill again, many with Union Flags but certainly not as many as previously.
Not sure if many are refugees from UK weather or some folks are finding that life in the eastern Med is just bit more handy than further West. . ?

 

[Portofino]

Henry
I don't understand ( sorry ) why you want if possible more transparency akin to the motor trade in the boat trade market ?
Running a charter Co surly at the end for you it's best to have the max depreciation write down figure of part thereof to offset
Depending how all your other business are structured - burry that " loss " in more profitable part to at least on paper reduce tax liability ?

Oh forgot enjoy the boat at point along the way

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

We have brokers fighting over selling our current boat, but strangely none seem to want to discuss rates. The boat industry, as ever, moves very slowly.

I think the UK market since red diesel finished has become a strange one to judge and monitor.
From a distance I think it is really slow and strange, basically the opposite of what it used to be. Stable and strong especially with the following brands.
With five builders Fairline, Princess, Sealine, Cranchi and Sunseeker (more or less in this order) always selling fast and at a stable price in the UK.

As for firming prices we are still far away from the strong sales the used boat market had in the Med till 2006, but boats are moving and hence the price hike.
The price hike IMO is more around boats owned for about ten years or more (which where the most heavy hit), and the interesting bit is that most who want to sell are selling to buy for the most part used again.
Yes new boat sales are increasing but this happens more in a relationship to global sales volume then one based in one country or one continent.
I think we are at a bridge, and yes its looking brighter and better since a couple years (since 2016) but people who returned back cannot understand how a Princess V48 Open with IPS costs a lot more to a Princess V48 from a decade before.
New model has IPS, smaller engines, build of vacuum all items marketed as reducing costs to boat builders, and yet the price hike is about 40%.

 

[ari]

As per what whitelighter says, ~20% off new factory order cars is not uncommon , i got 19% off my last bmw , it was a brand new factory order,ie to my exact spec.

That was a straight purchase,ie no trade in.

Goddam motor traders, why can't they just be 'transparent'?

 

[henryf]

Henry
I don't understand ( sorry ) why you want if possible more transparency akin to the motor trade in the boat trade market ?
Running a charter Co surely at the end for you it's best to have the max depreciation write down figure or part thereof to offset
Depending how all your other busineses are structured - bury that " loss " in more profitable part to at least on paper reduce tax liability ?

I want transparent pricing so I genuinely know what a boat is worth and whether I'm paying too much, too little or about the going rate. As things stand I have absolutely no idea at all and so my response is to buy nothing for fear of making a mistake. With cars, certainly Porsches it's pretty easy to get a handle on what something's worth. If deals are available on new cars it will hardly be a secret, a call to a couple of dealers and you know what the going rate is.

I'm not sure why we would want to actively lose money on the boat. If it does depreciate then that loss will be set against tax but I would much rather it doubled in price and we pay tax on the extra profit - clearly an unlikely scenario but the ideal. We do of course write the boat back each year and ultimately when we dispose of the boat any difference in revenue against stand in value will be addressed. But I can't see how wanting the boat to depreciate is in any way good.

One of the dangers with some of the posts on here regarding discounts achieved on various purchases is understanding when those purchases or sales were made. We've seen some strange things happening since 2007 and with the madness of Brexit we may not be out of the woods yet but that's a local issue rather than a global one. Our loss may prove to be someone else's gain ?

Henry :