Firming second hand prices?

[Whitelighter]

Anyone else noticed a distinct firming of second hand boat prices? Or at least asking prices.
Stuff I had on my radar from buying Seralia (Azimut 42/46/52/58, Ferretti 46/460/480 etc) where lots of older stuff was around the £100k mark now it's closer to £200k.
Not all sterling decline, I look at the euro pricing and I'd say it's up 10-15% without currency.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Yep, definitely, I'm seeing similarly stronger prices for models that I've been following.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Anyone else noticed a distinct firming of second hand boat prices? Or at least asking prices.
Stuff I had on my radar from buying Seralia (Azimut 42/46/52/58, Ferretti 46/460/480 etc) where lots of older stuff was around the £100k mark now it's closer to £200k.
Not all sterling decline, I look at the euro pricing and I'd say it's up 10-15% without currency.

Yes been going on since 2015/16.
It might get soft in Winter for a month or two, but used boat prices will get firmer over the coming years for a few reasons.
The main being that not much new boats sub 24 meters where build in the last years 2012-15 period.
I also think new boats quality (of most quality perceived commercial brands) has decreased in recent years and does not seem to go up, it actually goes down with each new model.

 

[Otter]

The chap at Ancasta was bemoaning the absence of stock and how sub 5 year old boats are all going for basically the exVAT price of a new boat. How was honest enough to say he could find nothing for us and he'd have much rather we'd walked in with a boat to sell. He put it down to low numbers of new build sub 40 footers post crash, the sterling decline and euro buyers snapping up his stock list in the last 12 months.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Yep
Ours sold in a week - no haggling.
B.co.uk and Ancasta have depleted stock and some of the asking prices seem sporty, to say the least.

Market is good, I’d say, for anyone selling right now.

Downside is the waiting list for our new boat - but there are worse problems than that.

 

[Whitelighter]

Yes been going on since 2015/16.
It might get soft in Winter for a month or two, but used boat prices will get firmer over the coming years for a few reasons.
The main being that not much new boats sub 24 meters where build in the last years 2012-15 period.
I also think new boats quality (of most quality perceived commercial brands) has decreased in recent years and does not seem to go up, it actually goes down with each new model.

Yes I understand the arguement for 08-11 boats.
I'm seeing firming in the 1994/5/6 stuff through early 2000s. Same amount of stock as there was 2/3 years ago in that range

 

[Greg2]

We are mid-transaction on both a sale and purchase of a used boat so have been quite engaged with the market this year. Perhaps it depends on type of boat but I haven't really seen prices firming up but availability of suitable boats for us has been an issue. All the brokers we have been dealing with are reporting low levels of stock and if you look many are leaving sold boats on their listings for a lot longer than they would usually. I guess the natural consequence is that if demand remains then prices will increase.

 

[henryf]

This has been a long time in the making. Lack of joined up thinking within the industry has drawn out the process but finally things are catching up.

Someone like Princess or Sunseeker only need to find a couple of hundred people world wide to sell their entire production for the year. Over recent times they have cast their nets beyond the UK and Europe to the point where selling out is a forgone conclusion. Order books get ever longer and the prices rise way in excess of normal inflation. With small batch built hand production and some of the most expensive Labour in the world putting up prices is the easiest way to make money. Ramping up production and bringing down prices wouldn't work.

Now consider used boats in relation to the manufacturers and their sales teams. A bloody pain the arse. You want to sell your production for the year and a part exchange only gets in the way. Traditionally they were traded out to other dealers with handsome mark ups in the new list price allowing the numbers to work.

With emerging markets there are no part exchanges so now the manufacturers can simply sell boats increasing prices every year. Happy days.

This left existing owners in something of a dilemma, their boats were valued by the used dealers on the basis of low trade prices but new prices were running away with the fairies. It made no sense at all when trying to upgrade your boat for a new one. A 42 footer that used to be £350k new was now £550k new but your 3 or 4 year old boat was only worth £200k. New buyers were stepping in to buy the new boats and you were left in the dark.

Now consider the sales agents for the manufacturers. They are selling production like shelling peas. Agents are fighting for production slots with the popular models. It's got to the point where they are twiddling their thumbs wondering what to do with themselves for the rest of the working week. Then someone had the bright idea of selling used boats, after all that's what the motor trade do!

So now the main agents set themselves up as used boat dealers as well as new boat dealers. The problem is they still want to buy and sell at those low prices which make no sense when compared to new list price. They still want to sell a 3 or 4 year old 42 footer that was £350k new for £200-250k even though a new one is now £550. "That's what we sold the last one for" (when new list price was £350k). Unsurprisingly they couldn't find any boats to sell.

Gradually they have had to rise the price of used boats so that they make more sense when compared to new boats. That way owners will be prepared to sell. Finally we are starting to see a correlation between the used market and new prices.

Where brokers have run out of boats I suspect they have been left behind and have under sold their customers boats in relation to what was achievable. They were looking backwards rather than forwards. It will of course depend on model and age. The new boat pricing only ripples down so far. A 20 year old boat is much less affected than a 3 year old boat.

Purely in my humble opinion of course. Others might take a different view.....

Henry

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Yes I understand the arguement for 08-11 boats.
I'm seeing firming in the 1994/5/6 stuff through early 2000s. Same amount of stock as there was 2/3 years ago in that range

Why not the quality of these yachts was much better then some of the newer stuff. Then it all depends to condition.

Henry from a certain PoV you are right but I got a report from the last two years commissioned by the largest boating builder (French) which actually says the Far East market is a loads of bullocks and want get a share greater to the 10% to the total value of boat sales around the World. At the moment the Asian market has a share of 5-6%.
There is also a problem for moving hardly used stock in the area of China, with this losing a lot of money.
Thailand is giving signs of maturity in the area and this is followed by the Japanese.
Anyway this report makes it clear that the hike in production and sales will always come from USA - Europe - Australia and then the rest. I do agree with this 100%.

 

[Momac]

I have seen some boats under offer that have been for sale a long time and formerly priced too high.
But some with very optimistic prices are still for sale.
Lets not forget used boats took a hit in prices over the recession. That may be recovering slightly. Some models do seem to have gone up in asking price.

Also a static price is in fact depreciation over time as it is eroded by inflation. I have been boating 10 years and prices are in the same ball park - so even given low inflation the prices are in real terms cheaper. Considerably cheaper in comparison to house prices. Does this then mean more people are able to afford boats.

I am not looking to sell and not really sure what I would change to even if funds were available. I am not keen on the square edged flat pack fit out of some more modern boats . Also more modern engines may be more economical on fuel but more complex . If others think the same it may be older, well maintained, boats could see increases in value , perhaps in keeping with inflation.

 

[Portofino]

It's a combo of a lot of factors allready mentioned. Not predominantly just 1or 2 .
The new asking prices compared to what you could get for the same money was too bigger gap ,that's closing.
The "lost decade " which started 08 is ending economically , stock market is strong , property prices strong ,general feel better .Pent up spend ,it only takes a few 100 or so to wade in with £200-350 K to clean up 40-55 ftr used stock a popular size range .
Euro land economies are on the up too ,more emerging buyers sub £500 K competing for as said above few boats knocked out in the 40-55 ftr range past decade or so .
Older modals with normal windows -not bonded Z strakes and trad mechanicals - simlpe shafts more seaman like interiors ,not Ikea sharp edged copies etc may be more sought after , by experianced boaters moving up .
There's plenty of stock Absolute,s and Galeon,s sitting in La Napoule ( Fr .dealer HQ ,s ) with wacky windows ,IPS and plenty of electric gizmos to yet to stand the test of time in a marine enviroment .
Dog walking in the morning peering into dealer windows (about a dozen in La Nap inc Sunseeker .fr and Princess .fr ,flairline .fr ) yup now come to think about it there's not much used stock .
Princess seems to be moving plastic 50-60 ftr s - here in the SoF -guess the Fr think they are French in a high end way ?
Re build Q ,hmm one new Prinny 49 FB -the teak on the Hilo came off after a few dunkings -3 months after hand over not good -just witness a weeks worth of work 2 local french wood blokes refitting it after ripping the factory stuff of what remained- off .
Was glued down with yellow stuff ,not evenly spread leaving voids which water got under and started to lift -now layered on black sika , and finished all by hand .
They put solid 6 mm back individually .

 

[gjgm]

Henry..were you not the chap who said anyone not getting 30pct off the price of a new uk build was a fool...��!

 

[henryf]

Henry from a certain PoV you are right but I got a report from the last two years commissioned by the largest boating builder (French) which actually says the Far East market is a loads of bullocks and [won't] get a share greater [than] 10% of the total value of boat sales around the World. At the moment the Asian market has a share of 5-6%.
There is also a problem for moving hardly used stock in the area of China, with this losing a lot of money.
Thailand is giving signs of maturity in the area and this is followed by the Japanese.
Anyway this report makes it clear that the hike in production and sales will always come from USA - Europe - Australia and then the rest. I do agree with this 100%.

Slight corrections made not to be nasty but to make your point clearer. I only speak one language (badly)

In Asia the wealthy tend to be very wealthy with no middle class. So it is the larger boats which find homes easier. I witnessed with my own eyes a first time buyer stepping into an 88 footer!Your French manufacturer is unlikely to build large boats measured in metres rather than feet.

As for a maturing market I would suggest more a case of infrastructure needing to catch up. I have spoken to people who would love to buy a boat but there aren't any suitable marinas in their area. Even fuel can be a struggle compared to more established markets. Once the infrastructure catches up I am sure boating will continue to grow. I predict a time in the future when folks will be considering Asia rather than the Med as a potential base for their boats on this forum.

China is a very unique market and highly controlled. People can't necessarily spend their wealth in the way they would like. Look at golf and how it has been seen as a sign you were corrupt if you played it. We have yet to see anything like the true potential of China as a boating market. Things change on a generational basis, not over a short 5 or 10 years.

Even excluding Asia Princess & Sunseeker only need to find a couple of hundred people each. There are 325 million people in America, 740 million in Europe. If you assume only the top 1% will be able to afford a decent sized boat that is a potential market of over 10 million punters !

Henry

 

[petem]

I think the deserted size bands will keep prices for later boats of that size firm. So Targa 34 will always be popular as will be the Targa 38 (no longer in production) and the last S/S's < 50ft (nothing made in this size now).

I hadn't realised, but other than the Princess V40, the smallest sports cruisers available are now the Targa 48 and San Remo 50. Note that a Targa 43 launches next year.

 

[henryf]

Henry..were you not the chap who said anyone not getting 30pct off the price of a new uk build was a fool...��!

No, I was the chap saying I would like to see more transparency in the pricing of boats so we all know just what something is really worth. There are some boats where 30% isn't enough, others where 5% is a right result. This is the case with both new and used.

Henry

 

[ari]

This left existing owners in something of a dilemma, their boats were valued by the used dealers on the basis of low trade prices but new prices were running away with the fairies. It made no sense at all when trying to upgrade your boat for a new one. A 42 footer that used to be £350k new was now £550k new but your 3 or 4 year old boat was only worth £200k. New buyers were stepping in to buy the new boats and you were left in the dark.

If a new 42 footer is 'now £550K', why would a 3 or 4 year old boat be 'only worth £200K'? Buyers with six figures to spend on a boat aren't generally idiots, surely if a new 42 footer is going to cost £550K, a tidy three year old example is going to look good value at say £300K, maybe even £350K (good news for depreciation - or lack of!). Not sure why a three year old boat would be valued by buyers at way less than half the cost of a new one.

So now the main agents set themselves up as used boat dealers as well as new boat dealers. The problem is they still want to buy and sell at those low prices which make no sense when compared to new list price. They still want to sell a 3 or 4 year old 42 footer that was £350k new for £200-250k even though a new one is now £550. "That's what we sold the last one for" (when new list price was £350k). Unsurprisingly they couldn't find any boats to sell.

Gradually they have had to rise the price of used boats so that they make more sense when compared to new boats. That way owners will be prepared to sell. Finally we are starting to see a correlation between the used market and new prices.

Is it the dealers that set the secondhand values? Surely they don't get to set the prices, the market (the buyer) does?

And how many used boats are dealer stock in any case (be it part exchange or trade purchased)? I'd have thought that 95% of boats for sale are privately owned (albeit often for sale through brokers) with owners keen to maximise their return. Which is basically selling for as much as they can (quite understandably), which brings us back to the buyers setting the market, not the dealers choosing a price.

Like any market, values primarily turn on supply and demand. At the moment there seems to be a lot of demand and a shortage of supply so prices seem to be 'firming'.

People (owners and dealers) try to sell boats for as much as the market will bear, as has always been the case. I'm not convinced that it's any more complicated than that.

 

[henryf]

I think the deserted size bands will keep prices for later boats of that size firm. So Targa 34 will always be popular as will be the Targa 38 (no longer in production) and the last S/S's < 50ft (nothing made in this size now).

I hadn't realised, but other than the Princess V40, the smallest sports cruisers available are now the Targa 48 and San Remo 50. Note that a Targa 43 launches next year.

There are other brands which specialise in smaller boats so probably not viable for Princess or Sunseeker to try and compete.

H.

 

[mcanderson]

For my 2p, or 2c, worth there might be some truth in the initial proposition. We sold our 10m Beneteau sailboat in 24 hours in early June. We had had the boat for 9 years and got the same figure in € that we paid in £. So depending on if you do the exchange rate at the time of purchase or the time of selling we took a 10-25% hit on depreciation. I think that is pretty good. This left us without a boat on the Cote d Azur and so I was instructed to find a replacement.
Having spent considerable effort researching our move to power I had a short list of what I liked, our budget and a limiting factor of not 1cm over 12m in length due to our berth.

UK based boats were all more expensive than French or Italian based boats for the same model and often with a lower spec. So adding in transport costs and even with the poor exchange rate better value for money was to be found in Europe.
European brokers were generally helpful, but in the run up to the summer they know they hold a better hand of cards as people want to be on the water by July for the season. We found stocks were low and well priced boats moved very quickly. Most listings were at a premium and many of the boats on my list are still sitting there for sale.

When the boat we ended up buying was listed I moved quickly, made a reasonable offer assisted by the broker who sold our old boat to help with understanding the local market better and we have moved up the ladder. We can’t afford a new Ss, Pr or Fl, but this won’t be our last boat and we may go bigger, but for now we are very happy.

The so what of all this – my feeling is that there is a premium in used boat prices across Europe right now. Good priced boats do come up, but they move very quickly. The buoyant market will continue with the usual winter dip, but the Cannes, Genoa, Southampton boat shows will produce sales across the board and this will bring new stock to the market.

 

[henryf]

Ari

Your boat was only worth that in p/x against a new one. So you didn't do the deal and your boat never came on the market. That lack of joined up thinking meant there was no link between new and use prices. Or, and hence my comments of transparent pricing, the new boats weren't actually achieving their £550k hence only offering £200k in p/x.

It just made no sense to me as someone who buys & sells things for a living. Clearly it made no sense to anyone else either hence the used boat market lagging behind in terms of price compared to new boats. Everyone else assumed the dealers were just making up their new boat list prices.

The dealers looking to get into used boats do buy outright. They then sell with a warranty & so on but the problem is their prices were all wrong so they could buy anything. It's no one person or reason for the mess but a combination of factors. Brokers are caught in the middle. They don't own anything so have to try and fit in the middle somewhere. The seller thinks they're working for them, the buyer thinks they're working for them.

At the end of the day I still maintain that open pricing promotes confidence and I'm not convinced the industry has moved on from the 1990s when you got your original purchase price back against a new boat and the numbers were all jiggled around to make it work.

We all accept depreciation, just let us know what the numbers are and advertise boats at accurate numbers be it new or used. Of course brokers have no control over advertised used prices, they just have to go with whatever the owner tells them so no one has any trust or respect for them.

Henry

 

[gjgm]

No, I was the chap saying I would like to see more transparency in the pricing of boats so we all know just what something is really worth. There are some boats where 30% isn't enough, others where 5% is a right result. This is the case with both new and used.

Henry

Well I did put what I understood your original post to mean to the test..fortunately for the sales bod it was at a boat show and st johns ambulance were very quick...!