Fire down below

prv said:
Powder is cheap, and most people have no experience of using them (and the resulting whiteout) so that's what they fit. Myself included, until the Crash Test Boat video. I have foam now.

Pete
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I've used powder in a car. I agree. You really don't want to use powder if you can help it. It is that bad.

I've got 5 (inherited) powder extinguishers on my boat, and I'll be replacing the key ones with co2 as soon as I can afford it.
 
aquaplane said:
CO2 and Halon both smother the fire by displacing the oxygen and are both equally dangerous in that regard.
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That's not my understanding.

I believe halon works chemically, disrupting the combustion process. Hence you don't need as much of it as you do CO2 (which does work by displacing oxygen) and in a well-designed system the concentration can be low enough (while still effective at stopping fire) that it's not dangerous to people. Breathing it is still not advised as it makes you feel a bit funny, but if someone gets trapped or whatever they're not going to suffocate.

Unfortunately it's seriously nasty to the environment, so is no longer used. Aircraft and armoured vehicles were the last uses allowed, as they were deemed to have the most urgent need to put out a fire quickly and without evacuating and nothing else was as good as halon. But those uses have gone too now.

Pete
 
To correct a few points :)

Remember the Fire triangle- you need fuel, heat and oxygen - remove any one and the fire will stop.

Halon works by interfering with the combustion process, Co2 by displacing the oxygen.

Co2 does have quite a cooling effect in the short term - when discharged you will get lumps of solid CO2 - dry ice - which is used to keep all sorts of things cool. Try holding your hand in front of a CO2 discharge and see how cold it is (no - not really you will get freezer burn!)

Halon was banned due to the effect on the ozone layer - ie for environmental reasons. It is not harmful to breathe it.

hence why it is used on an aircraft. You can discharge two or three extinguishers ion a fire without poisoning or asphyxiating the crew and passengers.

Aircraft carry both halon and water extinguishers - not Co2. the water extinguisher is used for damping down fires of dryer materials.

Halon is still supplied to aircraft, and used aircraft halon extinguishers are recharged with halon. As far as I know it is the only approved usage because nothing else does the job as well.

Hope this helps!
 
Piers said:
If you want some really good and sound advice, call Peter Henderson of Fireguard Services. 01425 616139.

I've used Peter's services on my boats for over 15 years. Always willing to help and ensure pricing is fair.

(No connection - just a very happy customer)
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What did he recommend for you?
 
tidclacy said:
What did he recommend for you?
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On Play d'eau (Fleming 55) he recommended the following,

Master cabin - 1 x 1kg powder
Port guest cabin - 1 x 1kg powder
Stbd guest cabin - 1 x 1kg powder
Main saloon - 1 x CO2
Pilot House - 1 x 2kg powder
Engine Room - 1 x 2kg powder
Lazarette - 1 x 2kg powder

The engine room has a Sea-Fire sutomatic system.

Bear in mind that that if a fire cannot be extinguished really quickly, it will get out of hand even quicker.

By having small extinguishers in each of the cabins, you would have something to hand to help you escape if the fire was outside the cabin.

The CO2 was recommended for general purpose within the large saloon area.

Piers
 
Piers said:
On Play d'eau (Fleming 55) he recommended the following,

Master cabin - 1 x 1kg powder
Port guest cabin - 1 x 1kg powder
Stbd guest cabin - 1 x 1kg powder
Main saloon - 1 x CO2
Pilot House - 1 x 2kg powder
Engine Room - 1 x 2kg powder
Lazarette - 1 x 2kg powder

The engine room has a Sea-Fire sutomatic system.

Bear in mind that that if a fire cannot be extinguished really quickly, it will get out of hand even quicker.

By having small extinguishers in each of the cabins, you would have something to hand to help you escape if the fire was outside the cabin.

The CO2 was recommended for general purpose within the large saloon area.

Piers
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Plus fire blanket, and bucket, large, seawater for the chucking of, I hope?
 
Many years ago halon was banned for use in motorsport vehicles and replaced by AFFF. There was a spate of burned out cars after that, halon worked well, AFFF not so well. I have heard it described as basically a kettle of water with some fairy liquid. I think now the motorsport stuff has improved, might be worth looking at what is used there.
 
The worst thing about powder is the mess afterwards. Also, if the engine is running and sucks the powder into the engine, it may wreck the engine. But it works!

CO2 - least mess of all but if you fail to put the fire out and cooled down enough to prevent reignition, then you have a real problem, as the fire will very quickly revert to what it was before.

AFFF - Unless you are carrying a 2 gallon AFFF extinguisher, I doubt there is enough to provide the mix and pressure needed to get the most of this system.
 
Talbot said:
The worst thing about powder is the mess afterwards. Also, if the engine is running and sucks the powder into the engine, it may wreck the engine. But it works!

CO2 - least mess of all but if you fail to put the fire out and cooled down enough to prevent reignition, then you have a real problem, as the fire will very quickly revert to what it was before.

AFFF - Unless you are carrying a 2 gallon AFFF extinguisher, I doubt there is enough to provide the mix and pressure needed to get the most of this system.
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And the definitive answer is :confused:
 
Vara said:
While checking some facts for this thread came across this,

http://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/water-mist-extinguishers

Looks interesting, might be an issue with freezing though.

the video is good as well;

http://www.safelincs.co.uk/video_player.php?vid=49
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Fire Extinguishers

Fire ExtinguisherNo single type of extinguisher is totally effective on every kind of fire. So before buying a fire extinguisher, it is vital to look carefully at what type of fire it has to be used on.
Four types of extinguisher for home uses are:

Water
Foam
Dry Powder (ABC rated)
Carbon Dioxide (CO2)

Also, with the emergence of smaller wet chemical fire extinguishers, households are starting to use these for deep fat fryer fires etc, although wet chemical fire extinguishers were originally used only in a professional kitchen environment.
Strengths and Weaknesses

Water Fire Extinguishers are good for tackling fires involving burning paper, wood and soft furnishing (Class A fires), as the water soaks into the materials and cools them, while extinguishing the fire. This type of extinguisher does not contain harmful chemicals but has a low fire fighting rating. Due to this water fire extinguishers are usually large and heavy to overcome their lack in fire fighting power. It is also important to remember that water is an electrolyte and conducts electricity. Care must therefore be taken with regards to accidental use on exposed power cables. However, both the weight and the conductivity problems can be overcome by using water extinguishers with environmentally friendly additives. Water extinguishers with additives have a higher fire fighting rating which, therefore, allows the use of smaller and lighter extinguishers. Neither do they conduct electricity. As they are mostly free of harmful substances, water fire extinguishers are especially suitable in households where children have access to the extinguishers and an accidental discharge is possible.

Foam Fire Extinguishers also called AFFF FOAM (Aqueous Film Forming Foam) create a smothering film of foam over the fire, which starves the fire of oxygen. The foam also penetrates porous materials and cools the fire through evaporation of the water content in the foam. As the foam creates a foam carpet on burning liquids like petrol, foam extinguishers are particularly suitable for flammable liquids and areas where manmade fibres in soft furnishings and carpets might liquidise under the influence of heat. Foam extinguishers are safe for use with electrical equipment, although the electrical equipment will be seriously damaged by the liquid.

CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) Fire Extinguishers contain only pressurised CO2 gas and therefore leave no residue. This type of extinguisher is suitable for use on fires involving burning liquids (Class B fires), but is also an excellent solution for quenching fires involving computer equipment and other electrical appliances, as it does not cause damage to the electrical items and does not cause the system to short circuit. It is important to remember that when using CO2 extinguishers there is a possibility that once the smothering CO2 gas has floated away the fire may re-ignite if the source of the fire is not removed (eg switching off the power supply) or if the materials are still very hot. Please be aware that CO2 extinguishers that are not fitted with double-lined swivel horns may cause your fingers to freeze to the horn during the deployment of the extinguisher. CO2 extinguishers are NOT suitable for deep fat fryers, as the strong jet from the extinguisher carries the burning fat out of the fryer and into the room!

Powder Fire Extinguishers, also called ABC powder extinguishers or dry powder extinguishers, are suitable for fighting class A,B and C fires. ABC powder extinguishers have a very good fire fighting capacity, but the powder does not soak into materials and does not have a good cooling effect on the fire. This can result in the fire re-igniting, if it is not properly extinguished. Care must be taken when using powder extinguishers that you do not inhale the powder. Powder extinguishers should therefore not be used in small, confined spaces where there is a risk of inhaling the powder. The clean up after applying a powder extinguisher is very difficult and the powder causes damage to soft furnishing, carpets and computer drives etc. So a careful balance has to be struck between the generally quite cheap but powerful powder extinguishers and the cleaner, but less powerful and sometimes more expensive foam/water (with additive) extinguishers.

For a household be careful not to buy just BC rated powder fire extinguishers, as they generally are not suitable for burning solids. BC rated powder extinguishers however, can be used for cars.

Wet Chemical Fire Extinguishers are especially designed for use on kitchen fires involving burning oil and deep fat fryers (Class F fires). These extinguishers come with a special, long application lance which allows you to safely lay a cooling layer of foam on top of the burning oil. They can also be used on Class A fires, although their fire fighting power for general risks is not very strong.

Alternatively, a (kitemarked) fire blanket can be placed over the pan containing the burning oil/fat. The pan should then be left to cool down. NEVER carry the pan outside or lift the fire blanket after a short period of time to inspect the burning oil as the introduction of oxygen through this action can reignite the fire. NEVER use pressurised water, powder, CO2 or foam extinguishers on fires involving burning fat, as the pressurised jet can cause the burning oil to be carried out of the pan onto surrounding surfaces causing more damage and a larger fire to tackle.
Fire Extinguisher Disposal

For disposal from business premises companies can use specialist service providers, for example Thomas Glover’s disposal service. Residentially used extinguishers can either be discharged and disposed of through the residential waste or be dropped off at the local recycling centre. Please be aware that it can be very difficult to discharge an extinguisher as a lay person, especially powder fire extinguishers, as the powder will get absolutely everywhere!
Points to note before tackling a fire

Don’t attempt to use an extinguisher on a fire unless you feel it is safe for you to do so.
Position the extinguisher where you can get to it quickly, like the hall.
Buy extinguishers that you can carry easily.
Don’t position extinguishers over a heater or fire, but do fix them to the wall, so they are out of reach of children but still easily accessed.
Read the instructions and be familiar with how to use your extinguishers. Don’t leave it until you have a fire.
If you require the extinguishers for a business (including letting premises) you must have them serviced once a year.
If you are using a fire extinguisher on a fire, keep yourself on the escape route side of the fire.
 
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FE36 Extinguishers

There are also these available:

http://www.fireprotectiononline.co.uk/automatic-fire-extinguishers/

They appear to be a Halon type replacement that is suitable for the engine bay but does not cause the problems associated with powder. There appears to be only an automatic version available so no good for fires in other areas and fairly pricey compared to CO2/Powder but might be worth a look.
 
Hand Held Gas Fire Extinguishers

Having said that a bit of searching found this:

http://www.lifeline-fire.co.uk/motorsport/products.asp?page=hand-held-extinguishers-27

http://www.lifeline-fire.co.uk/content/data sheets/Motorsport Zero360 HH 09.pdf

Suitable for ABC fires but no idea on price or suitability in the confined area of a boat, but they do others which are approved for motorsport so it may be suitable.

Have now found a price for the 1.0kg version - £204 ex vat!! Maybe the mess created by the others is cheaper to clean up!
 
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