feedback on MAN 2866 le401 marine engine

[meracus]

hi
anybody knows any reliability issue on these , i have found a boat that has a pair of these on a shaft and wanted to know if there is anything i should look at ... serviced every year by man themselves with full reports . i dont think "economical" per se
but im hoping for a trouble free boating experience ( well almost )
the broker told me that one of the engine has been rebuilt ... the other one serviced , and according to him the boat is in a1+ condition
he sent me some techno jargon i dont really fathom ( i can just about apply tanning lotion on pretty women )
if anyone care to chip in
thanks everyone


Dear Andre’,

Thanks for your Email!



Boat had 850 hours at time of works and only additional 50 have been ran after them.



The engine works were following:



STB engine (unloaded and re-mounted):

motore DX:
replacement of pistons, rods, cyl. liners, injectors, oil pumps, diesel pump, registration of valves, turbo, coolant, heat exchanger.

Port engine (works on board):
checks of oil and diesel pump, new injectors, valves registration, check of turbo, coolant, heating exchanger.

All gaskets, bearing, joints etc have involved.
The officials from MAN can issue a declaration regarding works done


All yearly service has been also done (last in Summer 2015): such as engine coolant pumps, belts, seacock checks etc. (service to generator also ran last year).


Also in 2014 a brand new Kohler 9KW generator has been installed.

Following electronics is new from 2014:
RAYMARINE a128 touch, w/ downvision e WI FI interface, display 12” multifunction display
LOWRANCE HDS5 display w/ chart/deepsounder

Also on board:
Tridata from VDO
Autopilot Robertson

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The first question I would ask the broker is why the starboard engine failed at just 850hrs. How old is the boat? Whats its history?

 

[meracus]

thanks ... obviously he has an answer ... aparently fully documented
reason why im asking if someone knows whats the deal with these engines why a failure so early ... were they prone to failure ?

 

[jfm]

The V12 MAN with numbers like 2876LE402 were troublesome - at least TCM on this forum had a full rebuild on one of his at 2 yrs old and not many hours, on a 2001 boat with the 1200hp version, plus a good friend of mine with a 2008 sunseeeker manahattan 70 had the same on one of his in the 1360hp version. Boat boats bought new, one careful owner at the time.

Now, the engine in this thread is I think the 6 cyl version of same engine. Same bore and stroke, and same cyl head design etc. So it doesn't surprise me to hear of a failure at 850hours and I would check carefully the risks of further rebuilds needed.

I'm not saying all MANs are bad, far from it, but there is a particular series that seems to have a worrying failure rate among the sample I have first hand knowledge of. It could be the Friday afternoon builds or something, rather than inherent bad design of the engine

 

[meracus]

thank you , how would you go about making sure this is a legit/safe buy , is there any way you could ascertain that it would be safe to put an offer . or is it safer to walk away ? just on the back of a horror story ? i like the layout . the level of finish on paper , the long list of desirable pieces of kit but if its gonna be a disaster then maybe

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The V12 MAN with numbers like 2876LE402 were troublesome -

AFAIK all MAN V12 engine numbers end in 2 as in D2842. A MAN engine with a number like D2876 would be a 6 cylinder engine

If you're right about the V12 engines, its time I sold my boat then

 

[jfm]

AFAIK all MAN V12 engine numbers end in 2 as in D2842. A MAN engine with a number like D2876 would be a 6 cylinder engine

If you're right about the V12 engines, its time I sold my boat then

I'll happily take your word for it as regards MAN's non intuitive model numbering system .
Both tcm's boat and my Manhattan 70 friend's boat were v12. 1200/1360 bhp respectively. I'm not saying they are intrinsically bad but I am saying that there is a worryingly high failure rate. In addition to those two busted boats we have yours and MRC's (again v12) which have been fine, so that's 50% of an admittedly very small sample of 4 boats. Plus there is myag's unbusted boat but his are the 1550bhp, different engine I think, plus bart's exploder but again different engines I think. Still if you count those it remains 50%. Maybe ok but enough to respond to OP as I did imho, bearing in mind he is himself faced with an 850 hour busted engine. I'm happy to hear a contrary view if there is a good explanation for all these observations.

 

[meracus]

thank you for all the valuable information so far
i will post the broker reply on this thread as soon as i get an answer

 

[MapisM]

If you're right about the V12 engines, its time I sold my boat then

LOL, maybe you should.
I just checked the instruments in view of turning the beasts on tomorrow, and according to the displays their total running hours is 13,524 and 182,448 (respectively port and stbd)...!?! :ambivalence:

 

[Latestarter1]

The engine works were following:



STB engine (unloaded and re-mounted):

motore DX:
replacement of pistons, rods, cyl. liners, injectors, oil pumps, diesel pump, registration of valves, turbo, coolant, heat exchanger.

Port engine (works on board):
checks of oil and diesel pump, new injectors, valves registration, check of turbo, coolant, heating exchanger.

I have always regarded 128mm bore MAN engines as a wee bit lacking in critical dimensions due to historic Mercedes JV which produced modular engines and 12 liter 128X155 2866 is a member of that family .

Simply listing the repairs to STB motor raises more questions than answers however there is a clue in there.......In the list of components replaced mentions 'rods' which leads one to believe that engine suffered hydraulic lock in cylinder/cylinders. Was it fuel or water? Well fuel pump and injectors changed leading to conclusion that it is possible that injector/injectors hosed and hydraulic lock resulted in the rather slim connecting rods being distorted.

All conjecture however I would want to KNOW the cause of injection system failure, if that was the issue as lightning can strike twice for example if engine filtration system is marginal or inadequate.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

LOL, maybe you should.
I just checked the instruments in view of turning the beasts on tomorrow, and according to the displays their total running hours is 13,524 and 182,448 (respectively port and stbd)...!?! :ambivalence:

Umm yes this is a problem that has occurred recently and Andrea also has to fix over the winter. Apparently its going to cost me €1000+ per engine to send each memory card back to MAN to get the engine hours reset. You must have done something right because the last time I used the boat, the port engine was showing around 350,000 hrs. Not bad for a supposedly crappy MAN V12 engine eh?

 

[MapisM]

Apparently its going to cost me €1000+ per engine to send each memory card back to MAN to get the engine hours reset.

Doh! That puts the advantages of electronic engines in perspective.
I don't think I ever spent that amount on any sort of extraordinary maintenance through the whole life of my 20yo cats...
Fingers crossed, touch wood, etc. etc.

PS: out of curiosity, after reading LS post, I checked the specs of your engines. 128mm bore, I'm afraid...
...but running VERY sweetly, I must say.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'll happily take your word for it as regards MAN's non intuitive model numbering system .
Both tcm's boat and my Manhattan 70 friend's boat were v12. 1200/1360 bhp respectively. I'm not saying they are intrinsically bad but I am saying that there is a worryingly high failure rate. .

Yes I believe it was Latestarter of this parish who used the word Mangrenade! They are actually rather nice engines in use, very torquey and smooth. Also the parts are cheap. I've just bought the annual service kit for both engines and gearboxes for about £1800. However as you say, as I'm speeding along, I can't help thinking of those 24 pistons and 96 valves whizzing up and down ready to let go at any moment

 

[jfm]

Yes I believe it was Latestarter of this parish who used the word Mangrenade! They are actually rather nice engines in use, very torquey and smooth. Also the parts are cheap. I've just bought the annual service kit for both engines and gearboxes for about £1800. However as you say, as I'm speeding along, I can't help thinking of those 24 pistons and 96 valves whizzing up and down ready to let go at any moment

Latestarter makes very interesting observation above. IF the failures are due to hydraulic lock when injectors hose, it is surely worthwhile taking a long hard look at the fuel filtration in case MAN or boat builder underspecced it a bit and in case MAN's injectors are particularly affected by dirt in fuel. As you know Latestarter is stickler for high quality fuel filtration. £1000 upgrading to bigger/better Racors or whatever -if needed - might be money well spent. Just a thought...

Bad luck on the computer things - that is really annoying. A kid with a laptop in east London railway arches would probably do it for £50. Worth a shot surely? And then spend the money saved on Racors so they become "free" (manmaths)

 

[Portofino]

I,ve got 1/2 of Deleted User,s the 6 cylinder 2876 @ 700 hp circa 2003 ( none common rail -that come next 2005 - 730 hp -the its morphed into the 800hp R6 - now I think 900 hp - eeek - out of the same block
I think its a progression of the 2866 ?
@690 odd hours they have been fine .

I did have fitted new Racor 900,s -whole thing new - as soon I got it - call it gut feeling .

I do add "snake oil" starbrite " diesel anti bug -come water dispersant when I fill up .
Did so with the KAD 300,s in the previous boat - to attempt to mitigate from dirty contaminated fuel ?

Coming back to "busted engine " -I was thinking more like the builder install issues -like exhaust set up , filtration ,and even strainer _ over heat issues ?
As opposed to some inherent poor design .
Also I run mine 1650 1750 rpm - wot is 2150 . they have only 17 tonnes + liquids to push along .
I do not need to do 2000 rpm .
interesting to find out what "busted " those newish -one care full owner boats that JFM refers to ??

 

[Latestarter1]

R6 is simply 2876 166mm stroke giving 12.7 liters.

Overall MAN marine motors have responded very well to adopting common rail, far better engines than the Bosch P pump PLI motors with EDC as they ran real cold leading to injector durability issues.

New engine installation is/should be policed in application sign off, however we know some builders may wing it if they can get away with it.

However i am confidant that this failure is not an overheat, as cylinder head would have been replaced as they are susceptible to cracking across valve seats if cooked, and picking up a piston in the bore cannot bend the rod.

MAN 6 cylinder CR motors are particularly sweet, far more than CAT C12 or Volvo D12 and idle like glass!

I would be happy to own a common rail MAN however in the event of the s%*t hitting the fan failures can be catastrophic.

Consider this.....CAT C12 has around 35% greater projected bearing (total crank bearing area) than 2866/2876 and C12 started life as 10 liter 3176 and even Cummins 8.25 liter C Series has 22% greater bearing area than 2866/2876.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

As you know Latestarter is stickler for high quality fuel filtration. £1000 upgrading to bigger/better Racors or whatever -if needed - might be money well spent. Just a thought...

Actually the filter set up on my boat is slightly odd. I've never seen an engine manufacturer supplied pre filter before but on my boat there is a MAN pre-filter with a Racor bypass and then a MAN fine filter on the engine itself

Bad luck on the computer things - that is really annoying. A kid with a laptop in east London railway arches would probably do it for £50. Worth a shot surely? And then spend the money saved on Racors so they become "free" (manmaths)

You know such a kid! If so I'll ship him out to Sardinia!

 

[meracus]

that is the reply to my query about the rebuilt engine



Hallo Mr. Andre’,
I’ve double checked and have been confirmed about the owner’s version (given to me weeks ago) of the repairs w/MAN Italy headquarter RANIERI TONISSI in Genoa, whose CEO I know since about 20 years, prior to revert it to you.

What actually happen was that one of the cylinder liner (I guess the one closer to the turbo) got cracked.
This might happen due to many reasons (the most believable is a material failure).
They always says this should not happen other then after 5000-6000 hrs (!) but in the reality, as former sales manager from a big Italian distributionship (Princess Yachts, Viking, Luhrs, Rodman, SESSA etc over the years) I would say that I faced similar failure on even 200-300 hrs engines (whether MAN, MTU, VOLVOS etc.). Some client was lucky to get it over first few hours/years and then covered by the warranty, somebody else not.. (!)

After the need of dismounting the engine was clear, it was not a sense to rebuild an engine with a brand new cylinder and all other old ones (also risking to get in further trouble) so they decided to renew all of them.

The owner was willing to do the same to the other engine (he said to me), in the doubt to face a similar problem (which actually was pretty much impossible for a clear statistic reason), but, as a most convenient alternative, the mechanic offered to make an endoscopic examination of the strd engine in order to be safe about it: they obviously found everything was ok and so ran only a deep check and engine tuning.

That’s what is also reported to me with similar words by MAN chief engineer Mr. Belgrano in Genoa (who’s not directly the mechanic involved, but the one having done the works is one of their authorized sales and service dealers).

I hope the above looks clear, anyhow I’m available for further question and, however, boat is available itself to any professional pre-purchase survey

Kind regards,

 

[MapisM]

which actually was pretty much impossible for a clear statistic reason

The guy clearly could use some inferential statistics lessons, methink.

 

[meracus]

mapism .... give him some credit ..... at least he is observant
will contact MAN to know how much it will cost to " sleep on both ears " as they say in french , im sure if he is all that friendly with the ceo i could put it on the condtion of sale . is it fair ?