Fastnet Yacht capsizes off Baltimore

[Alfie168]

And yet only days ago we had a posting saying the RNLI had never yet been able to home in on an EPIRB. I think this one may have saved their lives..food for thought.

If they were in the water 3 hours that is pretty close to survival limits unless they had suits on.

Also, and I keep thinking this when one of these high tech jobbies breaks in conditions it shouldn't break (as they seem to do regularly)..Who the hell is doing the stress calculations? They seem to be getting them wrong far too often. And I see from another post that Allegre has snapped its rudder.

Should they be recategorised as 'light weather only'.............

Tim

 

[Richard Shead]

I would imagine (but I don't know as fact) that this boat and its crew have been kitted out with the very best of everything in terms of personal kit, the boat however is another matter...

 

[ithet]

http://www.yachtingworld.com/performance-world/news/529474/rambler-100-capsizes-in-fastnet-race

Second picture shows 5 in the water with kit.

From the third picture I don't think they were too hard to locate with that rock behind!

 

[marko99]

Looks like the good folk in Baltimore SC pulled out all the stops last night to look after the casualties...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0816/breaking10.html

 

[Talbot]

This is not the first time the canting keels have broken off with the result of the boat turning upside down. It makes Mike Golding's efforts for more than 24 hrs to sail without his keel even more amazing.

 

[r_h]

Interview with owner George David here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnbsFI6BZrw

 

[Seajet]

Err,,, racing boats have been pushing their luck since pre- Viking times, let alone canting keels; remember 'Drum' ?

 

[Racecruiser]

She's a Canting Keel Hull,, or was

Those plans show what a flying machine she is (was). Just imagine the forces on the keel and canting mechanism when slamming into a chunky sea at high speed - I guess the bulb is several tons about 12 feet below the hull. How much over-engineering is required to make that safe?

Sobering when you think that Volvo 70, Imoca 60 and lots of other grand prix boats have canting keels - southern ocean anyone?

 

[andymcp]

Those plans show what a flying machine she is (was). Just imagine the forces on the keel and canting mechanism when slamming into a chunky sea at high speed - I guess the bulb is several tons about 12 feet below the hull. How much over-engineering is required to make that safe?

I had the privilege of sailing on ICAP Leopard for a day, including using the canting keel, downwind flying, and a huge tour of the boat's systems. Below the cockpit was a massive twin-seat bench filled with incredible computer systems (maintained remotely by some guy in NZ who is the sole provider of that kit - he also runs systems for their competitors...). Part of the systems were gauges of the calculated stress on all aspects of the boat - rig, keel, hull, daggerboards, rudders....you name it. When inside the rescue boundary of lifeboat services, they run the boat as close to 100% as they dare, then peg it back as they lose cover (e.g. on transatlantic) to a minimum of 85% before dialling it back up as they reach cover again. But as with all these boats, Real Life means that all their calculations are based on expected loads and things will, ultimately, still go wrong. And when they do, it tends to be catastrophic (for the boat).

In terms of loads, when sitting at the pontoon they swung the canting keel fully to starboard. The boat heeled 30 degrees. Apparently equivalent to over 100 bodies (130 from memory) sitting on the rail. Incredible machines. I'll never forget as we beat west up the Solent, the skipper kept looking behind us rather than in front. When I asked why, he said we'd be bearing off soon and he was "Checking the runway was clear"... They were not long back from setting a new transatlantic record, topping 39 knots along the way...

 

[bbg]

Sobering when you think that Volvo 70, Imoca 60 and lots of other grand prix boats have canting keels - southern ocean anyone?

VO 70 keel below.

What really impresses me about these keels is the short lever arm that is available to cant them. Not so much the power that is needed in order to do that (because with enough hydraulics or even a cascade you can do almost anything), but that whatever is used to cant the keel has to be attached to the boat. THAT part of the structure needs to be REALLY strong.

 

[Seajet]

When inside the rescue boundary of lifeboat services, they run the boat as close to 100% as they dare, then peg it back as they lose cover (e.g. on transatlantic) to a minimum of 85% before dialling it back up as they reach cover again.

Am I being an old fogey, or is this irresponsible to say the least, and basically risking not just the crew but the rescue personnel - remember the helo crew lost in 'Perfect Storm', a true story ?!

As money seems to be flowing freely, why not have the Ark Royal or at least an oil rig support style vessel along with helicopters ?

 

[armchairsailor]

Am I being an old fogey, or is this irresponsible....

Erm, they're saying that they sail within the limits of the machine when they can't rely on rescue - on the face of it, that seems sensible to me. Am I missing something? OK, it's a helluva machine, and highly engineered and consequently pushed hard, but these engineers/ designers tend to cover their bottoms quite thoroughly in our litigious culture. These machines also have oodles of safety features that keep them afloat in the event everything goes pear shaped, for the simple reason that they're insanely fast and the equivalent of F1 cars.

I would have thought that you'd be open to the idea of acceptable risk? OK, OK, different people interpret that phrase differently, but even so, they're competitive racing machines... (or at least you'd hope so!)

The Perfect Storm scenario is less likely to come about with a high tech boat, crewed by skilled professionals with an arsenal of meteorological wizardry to help them make the right decisions, isn't it?

 

[Richard Shead]

I had the privilege of sailing on ICAP Leopard for a day, including using the canting keel, downwind flying, and a huge tour of the boat's systems. Below the cockpit was a massive twin-seat bench filled with incredible computer systems (maintained remotely by some guy in NZ who is the sole provider of that kit - he also runs systems for their competitors...). Part of the systems were gauges of the calculated stress on all aspects of the boat - rig, keel, hull, daggerboards, rudders....you name it. When inside the rescue boundary of lifeboat services, they run the boat as close to 100% as they dare, then peg it back as they lose cover (e.g. on transatlantic) to a minimum of 85% before dialling it back up as they reach cover again. But as with all these boats, Real Life means that all their calculations are based on expected loads and things will, ultimately, still go wrong. And when they do, it tends to be catastrophic (for the boat).

In terms of loads, when sitting at the pontoon they swung the canting keel fully to starboard. The boat heeled 30 degrees. Apparently equivalent to over 100 bodies (130 from memory) sitting on the rail. Incredible machines. I'll never forget as we beat west up the Solent, the skipper kept looking behind us rather than in front. When I asked why, he said we'd be bearing off soon and he was "Checking the runway was clear"... They were not long back from setting a new transatlantic record, topping 39 knots along the way...

I too have witnessed Leopards keel in action being swung right over....

However this was to enable the owners wife to climb aboard from the tender outside Catherines in Antigua...

 

[Seajet]

Formula 1 car racing supplies ( or pays for ) their own fire & rescue crews, they don't rely on calling 999 or the AA !

 

[flaming]

When inside the rescue boundary of lifeboat services, they run the boat as close to 100% as they dare, then peg it back as they lose cover (e.g. on transatlantic) to a minimum of 85% before dialling it back up as they reach cover again.

Am I being an old fogey, or is this irresponsible to say the least, and basically risking not just the crew but the rescue personnel - remember the helo crew lost in 'Perfect Storm', a true story ?!

As money seems to be flowing freely, why not have the Ark Royal or at least an oil rig support style vessel along with helicopters ?

I read it the other way round. As in, we're a bit more cautious when we're out on our own.
No reason why anything would be more likely to happen out in the big ocean, but I guess it's part human nature to back it off when there's no chance of anyone coming to get you.

 

[Seajet]

I read it the other way round. As in, we're a bit more cautious when we're out on our own.
No reason why anything would be more likely to happen out in the big ocean, but I guess it's part human nature to back it off when there's no chance of anyone coming to get you.

Flaming,

I take your point, but have we any right to expect a volunteer with a job to go to, to turn out of bed at 02:00 in a gale and risk their lives just because ' we felt like hairy arsed heroes and pushed our luck ' ?!

I don't carry an EPIRB, I just think if I screw up I'm following thousands - millions - of others in getting an interview with Mr. Darwin.

I do have a one-man liferaft out of an ejection seat; the girlfriend can arm wrestle me for it.

 

[KREW2]

I read it the other way round. As in, we're a bit more cautious when we're out on our own.
No reason why anything would be more likely to happen out in the big ocean, but I guess it's part human nature to back it off when there's no chance of anyone coming to get you.

Not always so, I recall "Scilly Pete" being rescued quite quickly when some 500 miles out from St Lucia.
Incidently, I was led to believe that the rescue co-ordination from an ERPIB signal was conducted from a coastguard station, and not directly from a lifeboat.

 

[Highland Bear]

I too have witnessed Leopards keel in action being swung right over....

However this was to enable the owners wife to climb aboard from the tender outside Catherines in Antigua...

I have too. On the dock at Ocean Village just after she was delivered. Unfortunately, Chris, the skipper, in demonstrating his new gizmo, forget to check that the hostess in the saloon hadn't just laid out the champagne breakfast for the guests.

OOooo errrr.....

Anyway, pleased to see Leopard got home safe this morning in Plymbob, complete with keel.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... they run the boat as close to 100% as they dare, then peg it back as they lose cover (e.g. on transatlantic) to a minimum of 85% before dialling it back up as they reach cover again....

Normally "100%" capability of a designed system means that it will run continually at that load for a given reliability time. The system will not fail at 100.1%. The engineers will take into account manufacturing dimensional tolerance, material tolerance, normal wear and add the factors to the design. So in fact to achieve 100% the system will be designed to 100+%. However, running at 100% normally means that the time to fail is reduced significantly.

Perhaps the reason they reduce to 85% is not to do with lifeboat availability but more to do with distance and time under load. After all a F3 1000 miles from land probably loads the boat up less than 100%.

Great machines.

 

[armchairsailor]

Flaming,

I take your point, but have we any right to expect a volunteer with a job to go to, to turn out of bed at 02:00 in a gale and risk their lives just because ' we felt like hairy arsed heroes and pushed our luck ' ?!

I don't carry an EPIRB, I just think if I screw up I'm following thousands - millions - of others in getting an interview with Mr. Darwin.

I do have a one-man liferaft out of an ejection seat; the girlfriend can arm wrestle me for it.

Seajet - your post opens up a whole can of worms about the responsibilities of anyone racing, or indeed using the sea for recreational purposes!

I looked into these Seatow companies a little while back, and for a very modest annual subscription, they'll come and get you if your engine conks out. I know I'll use them for peace of mind (just like the AA) when I eventually get afloat. I suspect the super maxi scene's a little differnt from the coastal pottering I'm intending though.