Fastest GRP Long Keeler under 36' designed 1988 or earlier?

[Seven Spades]

What do the forum think is the fastest long keeler 32-36' designed 1988 or earlier made of GRP with a skeg hung rudder? In 2018 the Golden Globe race will take place 50 years after RKJ won the original race. I think this is a good time to speculate on what boats the competitors should chose.

So the questions are:-

1. What is the fastest eligible long keeler

2. Which boat is likely to finish first

3. What boat would you choose if you were to take part.

No electronic aids are allowed that were not available in 1988.

 

[JimBrown]

Baba 35 or Rustler 36.

Depending on the predominance of lighter airs.

The rules do not prohibit the use of the engine and boats using the maximum allowed 40galls of fuel, rather nullifies the advantage of the better sailing boats negotiating the doldrums, etc.

 

[PhillM]

If I was to do it, mine.

Because that's what I have.

I believe that's the same reason RKJ used his boat.

So good enough for me.

 

[Goldie]

What do the forum think is the fastest long keeler 32-36' designed 1988 or earlier made of GRP with a skeg hung rudder? In 2018 the Golden Globe race will take place 50 years after RKJ won the original race. I think this is a good time to speculate on what boats the competitors should chose.

So the questions are:-

1. What is the fastest eligible long keeler

2. Which boat is likely to finish first

3. What boat would you choose if you were to take part.

No electronic aids are allowed that were not available in 1988.

Firstly, isn't "a long keeler with a skeg hung rudder" a contradiction? My view is that a long keeler has the rudder hung on the back of the keel. As to the fastest eligible, I don't know and without knowing what's entered, I don't even want to guess what would finish first. What would I choose? That's easier! I'd choose a Biscay 36 for several reasons:

1. They're well proven, multiple Atlantic crossings, OSTAR, AZAB and Antarctic cruising.

2. They're surprisingly quick - certainly a match for the Rustler 36 which I have sailed (including a December Biscay crossing) and hold in high regard.

3. The Biscay 36 as a class is already an accepted class for the Golden Globe event.

4. I have one (and having completed 35-40k nm in her, know her intimately and have great faith in her).

 

[Seven Spades]

As to the fastest eligible, I don't know and without knowing what's entered,

That's the point, not all the entries are known, so it is interesting to see what people think they should use and what the actual entry list is.

 

[Seven Spades]

Well if I were to enter this race I think that I would try to acquire a Ta Shing Toshiba 36. There is an amazing one here http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1986/Ta-Shing-Tashiba-36-2891404/Harborside/ME/United-States

That have a much higher sail/displacement ration than a Rustler 36 and far more practicable.

These boats are said to be much faster than they look with quite a long waterline length. There is an interesting article on the same family of boats here:-

http://perryboat.sail2live.com/yacht_design_according_to_perry/

 

[doug748]

Assuming that by long keel we are not restricting ourselves to a full length item, as already discussed. I think If you equipped yourself with a She 36, you would give yourself a fair chance

 

[Concerto]

Excalibur 36 may be a bit older but should do very well as designed by Van de Stadt and fits the OP's design requirements. They were designed at a time for fast open water sailing with a high ballast ratio and a narrow beam. This example would be a fairly reasonable one to compete in.
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1...verstone,-Ipswich/United-Kingdom#.VpJIgFIb_Ea

 

[JimBrown]

. . . . In 2018 the Golden Globe race will take place 50 years after RKJ won the original race. I think this is a good time to speculate on what boats the competitors should chose..

As the OP seemed to be referring to boats eligible for the Golden Globe Race in 2018, they have to be not only full keel, but also ones on the 'eligible list of boats'.

The She 36 fails to qualify on both counts.

 

[Sandgrounder]

The effect of waterline length on speed through the water means that longer boats have an inherent advantage. I would still give a Nicholson 32 a fair chance. Tough, fast ocean crossers which are fairly easy to handle.

 

[dunedin]

As the OP seemed to be referring to boats eligible for the Golden Globe Race in 2018, they have to be not only full keel, but also ones on the 'eligible list of boats'.

The She 36 fails to qualify on both counts.

Yes the full keel rule is surprisingly restrictive. It certainly wasn't part of the rules imposed for the original race which RKJ won - which had a real variety of different boat types entered, including multihulls. Clearly some (such as Chay's Kingfisher?) were not particularly suitable for the voyage, but others might have made it given more time for prep and modern knowledge / experience since then.

As a purely theoretical exercise, and ignoring for now the full keel rule, as a believer that good more modern designers are key, pre-1988 under 36 foot production boats for such a trip would need to include
- the nearest size Ed Dubois designed Westerly the Corsair II (not his best westerly but just under 36 feet and part skeg rudder which is handy)
- the Jean Beret designed First 345 - no skeg on rudder unfortunately (add a sacrificial collision absorbing one?) but great boats, and proven regularly in high latitude sailing by at least one owner
David Thomas' Sigma 362 was also a nice boat, but probably too lightly built for such a trip?

 

[JimBrown]

The effect of waterline length on speed through the water means that longer boats have an inherent advantage. . .

It's not just LWL that will disadvantage the smaller boats, it's also load carrying capacity. The water needed for 300 days, even allowing for rain capture, is going to be close to a ton.

If you compare the waterplane areas (and hence their Pounds per Inch Immersion) of boats like the Nich 32 and Babas 35 / Toshibas 36, you can see why the bigger boats will carry these loads more easily.

 

[jwilson]

Assuming that by long keel we are not restricting ourselves to a full length item, as already discussed. I think If you equipped yourself with a She 36, you would give yourself a fair chance

And enjoy the sail as well. But as you say definitely not a "long keeler".

 

[JimBrown]

As a purely theoretical exercise, and ignoring for now the full keel rule, as a believer that good more modern designers are key, pre-1988 under 36 foot production boats for such a trip would need to include . . .

Why dismiss one set of constraints and then impose another set of your own? Why 1988? Why 36ft? Why production?

At least the Golden Globe Race requirements have some sort of logic. As a 'budget priced challenge' (sic), the organiser wanted to avoid someone building a 'one off' and thought they should all have a nodding resemblance to the winner of the original race.

Fair enough, it's his ball and his game. Throw into the mix that he originally wanted to be a competitor and that he already owned a Tradewinds 35, his position is even more understandable.

He also has a lot of experience of being an organiser and participant of these long distance events. Even back in the days of the 1990 BOC challenge in which he competed, having a race that included slow cruising amateur boats in the same event as the latest French Open 60s (that had left the stop over ports before the slow boats arrived), made publicity and maintaining interest in the race almost impossible.

So there's lots of constraints when dreaming up these events if you want to make them a success. So far Don seems to not only have had the right vision but also shown himself to be fairly flexible on changes where necessary. However he does need to move on his requirement for a manual wind-up chronometer. It seems unnecessary to spend thousands on a chronometer like this when a quartz powered, analogue faced brass one for a few hundred pounds will be do the same job. Just a detail.

 

[doug748]

As the OP seemed to be referring to boats eligible for the Golden Globe Race in 2018, they have to be not only full keel, but also ones on the 'eligible list of boats'.

The She 36 fails to qualify on both counts.

Here we go:

• Of fibre reinforced plastic construction.
• Designed prior to 1988 and have a minimum series of 20 yachts built from one builder.
• Have a hull length of between 32ft and 36ft. Bowsprits, wind vanes and outboard rudders, boomkins, pushpits and pulpits are not measured.
• Have full-length keels with rudders attached to the trailing edge.
• A minimum design displacement is 6,200kg.

All looks a bit random. I would take a Tradewind 35 or Saltram please.

 

[Seven Spades]

As the OP seemed to be referring to boats eligible for the Golden Globe Race in 2018, they have to be not only full keel, but also ones on the 'eligible list of boats'.

The She 36 fails to qualify on both counts.

They have published a list of boat that have already been approved, but anyone wishing to enter can apply with the boat of their choice and as long as it meets the criteria it should be approved.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

A Rival 32 or 34 by Peter Brett has form as being fast (relatively speaking of course) in offshore races and has had some success as well on handicap. The keel being encapsulated is more deep forefoot, long fin with skeg. They are not long keels in so far as the traditional long keel is from stem to stern.

See the Rival 34 Malaprop 1979 Class 8 and the Rival 32 Largo in 1991 http://azab.co.uk/race-history/

Both designed before 1988, low cost, available, relatively sea kindly boats, history of single handed sailing, lots of information available.

 

[Tranona]

They have published a list of boat that have already been approved, but anyone wishing to enter can apply with the boat of their choice and as long as it meets the criteria it should be approved.

See their website. There is indeed a list of approved boats which includes several already mentioned here but does not include boats with rudders that are not directly attached to the keel like the Rival.

Seems like the organizer has very fixed ideas and is trying to limit the entry to boats of a particular type. Maybe he does not want to compete against boats that are potentially faster than his!

 

[E39mad]

I would say the Rustler 36 or Vancouver 32 or 34 would be best bet for speed

 

[westhinder]

A Rival 32 or 34 by Peter Brett has form as being fast (relatively speaking of course) in offshore races and has had some success as well on handicap. The keel being encapsulated is more deep forefoot, long fin with skeg. They are not long keels in so far as the traditional long keel is from stem to stern.

See the Rival 34 Malaprop 1979 Class 8 and the Rival 32 Largo in 1991 http://azab.co.uk/race-history/

Both designed before 1988, low cost, available, relatively sea kindly boats, history of single handed sailing, lots of information available.

Fully agree, having owned a Rival 34 for 11 years. Given the choice I would opt for the Rival 36, as it is faster on all points of sail than the 34 and has even more stowage than the 34.
But they do not fall within the criteria, which seems a pity.