Farymann 15 / 18W Generator

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future_sailor

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Hello all,

I have one of the Farymann 15/18W series of generators and I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice regarding the generator and it's diesel stop solenoid.

I recently hadn't used the generator for a little while and upon going to start it, the diesel stop solenoid basically burnt itself out, I'm guessing through age or damp.

I have now sourced a replacement but due to the lockdown I won't be able to fit it for a while and in the meantime I've started to overthink things. The solenoid connects to what Farymann grandly refer to in the manual as the 'speed adjustment lever'. At rest this lever is all the way down in the stop position. Therefore, for the generator to start the solenoid has to pull the lever up into the cold start position to supply fuel. This has got me thinking that surely with the solenoid pulling the lever into this position the whole time the generator is running, the solenoid would burn out? However, surely its always been like that because the generator had always worked fine until the day that the previous solenoid went up in smoke.

I'm confused, please help.
 
If a solenoid does not travel to its full extent. stopped by the lever it operates it will draw more current than when its reached the full travel of the solenoid.
 
If I remember correctly, the stop solenoid is held open with the power on, as a safety feature, ie if something fails the generator will stop. The throttle lever, opens when power is first applied, you can hear it before the starter motor kicks in, it is then actively controlled to match the RPM to the power required, which to someone use to synchronous generators sounds strange, the RPM increases as the load increases, rather than the more familiar stutter and dip in the RPM, before the generator recovers when a load is switched on.
I had a Fischer Panda 4800i, based on the Farymann engine, and I had extensive problems with the stop solenoid and the electrical control of the throttle, to the point where I got rid of it.
I now have a Fischer Panda 5000i PMS generator based on the Kubota engine, and I'm still having problems with the stop solenoid, it stop working after about 3 months, so I couldn't stop the generator. However, the electric fuel pump stops when you turn off the generator and the engine runs out of fuel and dies. But fortunately, the electric fuel pump re-primes the engine on startup, so the generator works OK.
I replaced the 4800i with the 5000i because it was drop-in replacement (more or less). If I was starting from scratch. I wouldn't touch a Fischer Panda generator again. Both generators are, my view great concepts, but have proved to be unreliable, and the service agent in the UK, Fischer Panda UK, is little more than a parts warehouse, they have very little in house repair expertise and have to send virtually everything back to Germany for repair. Most recently, the fan failed on the rectifier / inverter box, and they wanted to send the unit back to Germany for repair, taking the unit out of use for weeks mid season, I simple got a new fan off ebay and installed it, a few nuts and bolts and 2 soldered joints.
 
Ian_Edwards said:
If I remember correctly, the stop solenoid is held open with the power on, as a safety feature, ie if something fails the generator will stop. The throttle lever, opens when power is first applied, you can hear it before the starter motor kicks in, it is then actively controlled to match the RPM to the power required, which to someone use to synchronous generators sounds strange, the RPM increases as the load increases, rather than the more familiar stutter and dip in the RPM, before the generator recovers when a load is switched on.
I had a Fischer Panda 4800i, based on the Farymann engine, and I had extensive problems with the stop solenoid and the electrical control of the throttle, to the point where I got rid of it.
I now have a Fischer Panda 5000i PMS generator based on the Kubota engine, and I'm still having problems with the stop solenoid, it stop working after about 3 months, so I couldn't stop the generator. However, the electric fuel pump stops when you turn off the generator and the engine runs out of fuel and dies. But fortunately, the electric fuel pump re-primes the engine on startup, so the generator works OK.
I replaced the 4800i with the 5000i because it was drop-in replacement (more or less). If I was starting from scratch. I wouldn't touch a Fischer Panda generator again. Both generators are, my view great concepts, but have proved to be unreliable, and the service agent in the UK, Fischer Panda UK, is little more than a parts warehouse, they have very little in house repair expertise and have to send virtually everything back to Germany for repair. Most recently, the fan failed on the rectifier / inverter box, and they wanted to send the unit back to Germany for repair, taking the unit out of use for weeks mid season, I simple got a new fan off ebay and installed it, a few nuts and bolts and 2 soldered joints.
Click to expand...

Thank you Ian, so what you're saying is that it's current opertion is correct and my paranoid thoughts of the new solenoid going up in smoke as soon as I turn the key are unfounded?
 
I''d follow the maxim, "if it still works don't touch it".
If you replace the solenoid it should work, for a while at least, but from my experience, and if it's critical to your sailing, I'd but a spare.
 
I know a lot of boat owners with generators. Most call the repairman out on a regular basis.

Most faults are shutdowns caused by a sensor reading. In most cases the sensor is replaced, but shortly another gives a duff reading and off we go again.

Fischer-Panda's figure highly here.

When I purchased an ebay bargain 8KW Westerbeke genset I renovated it - note renovated, not rebuilt - and modified the wiring to stop shutdown by poor sensor readings.

The genset is rarely used for longer than I hour. If it has oil in the engine and water coming out of the exhaust, that's good enough for me. The panel gives me RPM, oil pressure, engine temperature and 12v charge alternator output. The ships AC panel gives me AC Voltage.

And, over the last three years, it has been faultless.

To the OP. The solenoid shuts the fuel off to the pump. It is simple to get another banjo made allowing the solenoid to be discarded, if it similar to the Fischer-Panda. The banjo must allow fuel to the injector pump and fuel excess to be returned to the tank. It needs to be shorter.

Use the electric fuel pump only, bypassing the mechanical one. Then, when the current is switched off to the electric pump, the engine will stop. Perhaps not as fast, but it WILL stop.

I know this works, recently done it.
 
That is exactly what happens with the Kubota powered 5000i I have. The difference between the Kubota version and the Farymann version is that the stop solenoid on the Farymann is powered open, and will stop the generator if it fails for some reason . The Kubota is normally open and momentarily powered to turn the generator off.
I was reluctant to change or bypass the stop valve on the Farymann I had. I would have had to install an electric fuel pump, and I was concerned about "messing up" the complex CAN Bus control system, for which no information is available to the owner. It's a black box, and the assumption is that you will call an engineer to fix. Perhaps OK in lake Solent, but totally useless anywhere that is remotely, remote. The cost of getting an engineer to anywhere north of the Watford Gap, is prohibitive.
 
Ian_Edwards said:
That is exactly what happens with the Kubota powered 5000i I have. The difference between the Kubota version and the Farymann version is that the stop solenoid on the Farymann is powered open, and will stop the generator if it fails for some reason . The Kubota is normally open and momentarily powered to turn the generator off.
I was reluctant to change or bypass the stop valve on the Farymann I had. I would have had to install an electric fuel pump, and I was concerned about "messing up" the complex CAN Bus control system, for which no information is available to the owner. It's a black box, and the assumption is that you will call an engineer to fix. Perhaps OK in lake Solent, but totally useless anywhere that is remotely, remote. The cost of getting an engineer to anywhere north of the Watford Gap, is prohibitive.
Click to expand...

My Westerbeke has the old analog panel - for which I am grateful - and it was easy to do a bit of simple rewiring.

As you say, the more complex and computerised, the less it is possible to modify components without specialist high tech knowledge.

The Fischer-Panda I recently sorted for a friend had been in trouble previously, most of the sensors had been bridged by joining the wires at the loom together. It already had an electric pump, so bypassing the lift pump was simple. Now it is working, bolted to a substantial crate in his workshop and hooked up to fuel, cooling water and exhaust he can test it for some considerable time. I ran my Westerbeke for over twenty hours in my home workshop before being confident to install it. If it cuts out he knows to bridge each sensor in turn until he finds the duff one. The solenoid was totally siezed and corroded. Discarding it and having a shorter banjo made was a fraction of the cost of a replacement - and ALWAYS troublesome - Fischer Panda solenoid. His push button control panel switches the electric pump on, a press of the 'Start' button starts it, a further press of the on/off button stops it.

Hopefully, it will be more reliable from now on.

I suppose I am fortunate in being able to fix just about anything old school that goes up and down and round and round.

But modern electronics - not me..................................
 
Graham_Wright said:
I don't understand please explain. I can see that would be true for ac but dc?

Always willing to learn!
Click to expand...
If it is anyting like the old Lister fuel solenoids, it has two windings and a set of contacts, that disconnect the more powerful one when full travel is reached, leaving the weaker winding to hold it. This is a total guess, as I don't know that genset, but if the stronger solenoid did not disconnect, it might overheat after a short period?
 
DownWest said:
If it is anyting like the old Lister fuel solenoids, it has two windings and a set of contacts, that disconnect the more powerful one when full travel is reached, leaving the weaker winding to hold it. This is a total guess, as I don't know that genset, but if the stronger solenoid did not disconnect, it might overheat after a short period?
Click to expand...

The Fischer Panda fuel shutoff solenoid is actually an electronic fuel switch, no levers involved, only one winding.

Control panel on, solenoid activated, fuel flows.

Control panel off, solenoid closed, fuel stops flowing.

The stop solenoid on my Bukh DV 20 is like you describe above. When the starter is cranking, the high current winding opens the fuel flow. Once open, it is able to be kept open by a far smaller current. This is provided when the cranking stops and the engine is running. Turn the key to off, the small current is removed, the fuel is cut off, the engine stops.

I re-engineered my burned out Bosch solenoid on my Bukh to be cable operated as over 380 NZ Dollars for a new one was a bit extravagant.

It is easily possible to damage the solenoid winding by excessive cranking of a non starting engine - the high current winding burns out.
 
Rotrax
The OP has a Farymann, and it sounds like the solenoid is mechanical in #1. Friend has an FP set and spent a lot to get it up to his satisfaction.
 
It is a traditional mechanical fuel stop solenoid that's fitted to the Farymann set and what I can gather from the very informative replies that I've gratefully received is that provided I connect the new one up the right way round, i.e to pull the speed adjustment lever open, then all should be well. I think . . .
 
I have a very old farymann and fitted a mechanical solenoid to the speed lever similar to yours.

I fitted it such that the speed lever got to the end of movement before the mechanical solenoid hit ist end stop. It gat very hot and burned out.

I have had this before and I think it's due to eddy currents in the magnet/steel due to the magnetic flux not creating and opposing voltage internally.

One of the other issues is that the force is related to the current and the distance from the stop position, so the design can have a higher current creating more heat than can dissipated. Some time is is why an operating coil and a holding coil to overcome this.

The other issue with the way the farymann works on a constant speed setup is the speed lever needs to move as the governor adjusts the injector pump as the load changes and the speed changes.

This complicates the operation of the energise run type solenoid which is spring loaded to the stop position (fail safe).

The easier way is the energise to stop solenoid but this is not fail safe i.e loose solenoid power to stop the engine.

You can use a fuel valve solenoid to stop the engine but it an take several minutes to stop the engine due to the amount of fuel remaining in the feed pipes.

My main engine an old Leyland also has a mechanical stop lever I made an electrical actuator from a wiper motor to operate that using a relay and limit switched to stop the motor at each end of its 90 degree arc.
 
Rogershaw said:
You can use a fuel valve solenoid to stop the engine but it an take several minutes to stop the engine due to the amount of fuel remaining in the feed pipes.
Click to expand...

Just curious about that comment, as all my auto old style injector pumps had a fuel solenoid in the pump and it shut off as soon as one cut the power. If one put a solenoid just before a pump, as a mod, surely it would do the same? Otherwise the pump woud need to creat a vacuum in the tube to continue to feed the injectors?
 
DownWest said:
Just curious about that comment, as all my auto old style injector pumps had a fuel solenoid in the pump and it shut off as soon as one cut the power. If one put a solenoid just before a pump, as a mod, surely it would do the same? Otherwise the pump would need to create a vacuum in the tube to continue to feed the injectors?
Click to expand...
That is what I found with my farymann. The fact that the engine was lightly loaded at the time and maybe the size of the pipework between the valve and the injector pump was larger than necessary.

Thee was not pressure release by the solenoid valve so there was still pressure from the lift pump in the pipe.

As the injector pump ha no lift/suction capacity no vacuum could be developed bin the injector pump feed line.
 
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