Family Day Sailing Bilge Keeler?

beware of carp inboards

Shakemeister said:
We have a rough idea of budget in mind - we're not talking five figures - but there does some to be some boats out there with good inventory going for less than £5k. Which makes you wonder if they need some work. Also the ongoing maintenance and mooring costs have to be considered - it's like buying a cheap printer for your computer but then the print cartridges cost £20! :)
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all I would say is that the biggest safety feature on any family boat is that it should have an engine that starts every time

and with an inboard you can walk into eye watering repair bills

so be careful

D
 
dylanwinter said:
all I would say is that the biggest safety feature on any family boat is that it should have an engine that starts every time

and with an inboard you can walk into eye watering repair bills

so be careful

D
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My bitter experience over 23 years is that outboards can be every bit as temperamental and expensive to fix.
 
But throwing them out is bit cheaper... :p
and so is fitting another in (or on that is)

Shakemeister said:
We have a rough idea of budget in mind - we're not talking five figures - but there does some to be some boats out there with good inventory going for less than £5k. Which makes you wonder if they need some work. Also the ongoing maintenance and mooring costs have to be considered - it's like buying a cheap printer for your computer but then the print cartridges cost £20! :)
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When searching the market I've seen nice Snapdragon 26, old but sound, this was keel/centerboard version - rare one but better sailing and would be nice for use here in Poland, a friend of mine was interested. Advertised initially for 4k, but for some 2k really.
Another, bilge keels, can't recall but probably inside 5k was sold last year, very good condition, new rig and gear on and such. These boats were originally designed with special well for outboards, as far as I could judge also strong construction. Liked it.

For boat 'needing some work' but sound, around 28' I would find some about 2-3K, but personally not interested in bilge keelers. Ask Boatshed Wales, a very nice boat of some 26 - shame no-one was interested was there. Not to mention Contest 29 for 2k, new Beta engine and sails... probably gone now, heard there is another though. It's not an area for finkeel, so quite a few bilge keelers around ;)
 
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Yeah. But get some old one for a hundred or two, put in a locker :cool: another yet as spare at home. Problem solved. Unclip, clip on another. As for weekend sailor - simplicity is nice...

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BTW- this is quite nice small weekender, for a family. I sailed bigger ones, very nice going. Good quality, strong construction they were, long lasting, best materials. May be good buy for someone. But finkeel, though seaworthy; discuss the price (Stuart Turner engine...) http://www.boatshed.com/contest_25-boat-101202.html
 
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Nicholas123 said:
I don't think I'd want something with bilge plates,to much of an after thought.
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Why would you say that? They were quite common with wood construction where the ballast was in a central keel and the plates were only there to stop the boat falling over when it dried out. Also effective in reducing rolling downwind. If built according to the original design they are very robust. Suggest you read Maurice Griffith's books on design where he explains why he used them.

There are, of course downsides like any compromise design, but at the time it was a good solution to providing simple shallow draft boats with good accommodation and easy to build. Arguably better solutions came along later, particularly when GRP became viable as a building material.
 
Tranona said:
Why would you say that? They were quite common with wood construction where the ballast was in a central keel and the plates were only there to stop the boat falling over when it dried out. Also effective in reducing rolling downwind. If built according to the original design they are very robust. Suggest you read Maurice Griffith's books on design where he explains why he used them.

There are, of course downsides like any compromise design, but at the time it was a good solution to providing simple shallow draft boats with good accommodation and easy to build. Arguably better solutions came along later, particularly when GRP became viable as a building material.
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They seem flimsy & prone to damage compared to purpose designed bilge keels & I don't like compromise.Like you say they may well have been good in their day when nothing else was around.
There must also be the problem of cleaning them off between the keels which must be a real pain in the ass.
 
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I's usually tween keels (bilge keels mean those plates accompanying the central keel, btw) that are flimsy and known for problems. Central keel is better for taking the boat's weight on. This configuration was in use for centuries and still is, for instance fishing boats still use such, not only in UK. Look in Spain Med coast.
Tween keelers mostly are just a modification of fin keel boat, which is a compromise indeed.
Both way naturally the hull bottom needs to be properly strong, hard to achieve if the boat is to be light and fast.
 
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Nicholas123 said:
They seem flimsy & prone to damage compared to purpose designed bilge keels & I don't like compromise.Like you say they may well have been good in their day when nothing else was around.
There must also be the problem of cleaning them off between the keels which must be a real pain in the ass.
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Well, I can assure you they are not "flimsy" if built in accordance with the design. Enlighten me as to what makes bilge keels more "purpose designed" than "purpose designed" bilge plates. Yes, a problem cleaning inside but arguably little more than a bilge keel. All boats are a compromise, so difficult to have a boat if you like perfection - rather than compromise.
 
bilge keels

Shakemeister said:
Thanks for the replies - will be searching the market over the coming months - fingers crossed!
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the slug has bilge keels

never felt as though they were ever going to fall off

slug was also very good at sitting upright

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/galleries/super-slug/

she sailed very gently for such a small boat so lots of rolling resistance

at anchor as well as downwind

not the best performance upwind - but if it is a family boat you will be spending a lot of time on sandbanks digging rather than beating into a headwind

the Centaur is obviously ideal - I would be running one if I had the money - but finding a good one with a good engine for £5,000 is a big ask

Dylan
 
Rossynant said:
I's usually tween keels (bilge keels mean those plates accompanying the central keel, btw) that are flimsy and known for problems. Central keel is better for taking the boat's weight on. This configuration was in use for centuries and still is, for instance fishing boats still use such, not only in UK. Look in Spain Med coast.
Tween keelers mostly are just a modification of fin keel boat, which is a compromise indeed.
Both way naturally the hull bottom needs to be properly strong, hard to achieve if the boat is to be light and fast.
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That's a generalization.Obviously a dedicated bilge keeler needs to be well designed.Some are some ar'nt.
 
Tranona said:
Well, I can assure you they are not "flimsy" if built in accordance with the design. Enlighten me as to what makes bilge keels more "purpose designed" than "purpose designed" bilge plates. Yes, a problem cleaning inside but arguably little more than a bilge keel. All boats are a compromise, so difficult to have a boat if you like perfection - rather than compromise.
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I've seen some that have looked decidedly flimsy.The prospect of a grounding with the full weight of the central ballast keel adding to the impact on what is only really an outrigger is not something that I consider good design practice & three keels when only two are really needed also adds to it's impracticability (in my opinion).
I agree that all boats are a compromise that is why I chose my boat very carefully & I do think I have got the best design on the market for my specific purpose.:)
A really stunning boat who's praises I cannot sing highly enough.
 
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Nicholas123 said:
That's a generalization.Obviously a dedicated bilge keeler needs to be well designed.Some are some ar'nt.
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Generalization, sure. Would be a lot to write for proper explanation. But may say some to this:
Nicholas123 said:
I've seen some that have looked decidedly flimsy.The prospect of a grounding with the full weight of the central ballast keel adding to the impact on what is only really an outrigger is not something that I consider good design practice & three keels when only two are really needed also adds to it's impracticability (in my opinion).
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Some are flimsy - just meant to replace part of main keel surface taken off to make less draft boat, so she can still get to windward ;) For higher hydrodynamic efficiency they are thin and deep but short.

But original concept was strong indeed, stronger than single keel boat, and meant originally as protection for groundings. Central long keel is strong enough to withstand serious impact, but bilge areas are vulnerable - so strong bilge stringers were installed there and bilgekeels, also rather long, put on this outside to protect the hull skin and distribute the load over some length.
Here is example - on motor boat, so not for drift preventing, just for strength, protection and roll damping. https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/isysxe9MK_5iL06DBmeT59MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
or protective stringer (keel?) on fisherman https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4vpRqKyTLCzTAY8-f2C3y9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink Smaller fishing boats in many parts of the world have such bilge keels (bigger than on above pics) for taknig ground - not necessarily upright - or dragging onto beach.

This mode of construction was used by Maurice Griffith, who made them popular in UK. Just keels were bigger in area, for sailing.

Twin keelers are another thing, completely different concept, I believe made popular by Lord Rivendale and Tucker (with his Silhouettes). This is not meant for hull strengthening or impact protection on hard groundings - but naturally may be used for it - they are just finkeels made double for standing on bottom.
 
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There seems to be two main contenders at the moment: the Westerly Centaur and the Macwester 27.

What's the differences between the two?

Or is it just personal preferences wrt minor details?

Many thanks.
 
Macwester is better for taking the ground and sailing on shoals - rudder on solid skeg (on which boat will stand) so protected, prop protected, keels more vertical. Generally construction protected in case she will be thumped on bottom with swell. Typical shoal water concept. Even rudder shape will be more efficient on shoal water than with Centaur.

Centaur is designed more for sail performance with those keels at angle. In fact Centaur looks as original concept of design was a modern finkeeler.

How they perform I have no idea, but Macwester 27 was made for better upwind performance, with increased draft, some 20 cm more than Centaur. But they probably sail similar.

Inside layout differs. There is more room in Macwester, she felt less "production boat", headroom maybe better in Centaur - but not that I remember really. I was just looking over British boats, from curiosity at those as not shopping for bilgekeeler. May say I would prefer Macwester (but first would like to know how she sails) looked more comfy, also on deck; hull shape very nice for offshore work, I prefer rudder on skeg as more efficient.

Centaur is well known and people ask bigger prices, not necessarily it's bigger value. There may be better buy found in Macwester if there is some good one.

Well, got Your thread back up the page, now wait for those who have them :)

P.S. but then again - are you sure only two contenders?
Atlanta or Colvic 26 - similar to Centaur but made better
Snapdragon, Sunrider, Sabre;
even Searover 28 - which I like but this is heavy boat, so didn't mention earlier as not for weekend sail. Then, who knows, maybe you'd like to go farther?
Still the contest should be more about how good condition is particular boat for the money.
 
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