Family Day Sailing Bilge Keeler?

[grumpy_o_g]

I's usually tween keels (bilge keels mean those plates accompanying the central keel, btw) that are flimsy and known for problems. Central keel is better for taking the boat's weight on. This configuration was in use for centuries and still is, for instance fishing boats still use such, not only in UK. Look in Spain Med coast.
Tween keelers mostly are just a modification of fin keel boat, which is a compromise indeed.
Both way naturally the hull bottom needs to be properly strong, hard to achieve if the boat is to be light and fast.

In the UK a boat with two keels is usually referred to as a bilge keeler, especially if the keels are ballasted. Twin keels was adopted as a marketing term by Hunter (UK) as thy didn't want their boats to be associated with the sailing qualities of the the many safe but slow and heavy shoal draft bilge keel boats that were common at the time.

A long keel boat with bilge plates is often referred to as a triple keeler over here. Rossiter's Curlew and Pintail are examples.

 

[Rossynant]

Yes, I noticed but it makes a mess when discussing the two types. And strictly speaking bilge keel is the one not ballasted... Original terminology makes it more clear (or so I hope).
Same confusion goes now with "long keel"...

 

[aquaplane]

There seems to be two main contenders at the moment: the Westerly Centaur and the Macwester 27.

What's the differences between the two?

Or is it just personal preferences wrt minor details?

Many thanks.

I looked at a Macwester but it may have been a 26, it's a while ago.
I came away thinking it was a bit old looking, styling as well as that example being tired.
It was built very solid even compared to my current Centaur and they are supposed to be bomb proof if the keels have been beefed up.

Since the keels are vertical so that the hull will pull out of the mould, I would think that these types of boats are what gave bilge keelers a bad name for going sideways slowly, but I could be wrong.

The Centaur won't point as high as a fin keeler but if you sail a bit off the wind they don't do too badly for leeway, certainly good for a shoal draught/bilge keeler and better than most.

 

[Nicholas123]

Centaur is designed more for sail performance with those keels at angle. In fact Centaur looks as original concept of design was a modern finkeeler.

I'd say the reverse is true.From my experience with bilge keelers when they are splayed apart like that you are going to have the windward one breaking the surface & upsetting the up down motion.In the Macwester 27 they are more together like a conventional fin or long keeler & have a deeper draft.They are renowned for their seagoing performance & from my experience they are cracking offshore boats.They are also much better made than some of the boats you have mentioned later in your post in my opinion.
Anybody considering a Centaur should possibly consider reading the recent Yachting Monthly's January addition write up,it did'nt look too good to me!
That is not to say that the Centaur dos'nt have some advantages with it's shallower draft & I'm sure a great many people get a hell of a lot of pleasure from them.
They do however seem more like a caravan than a proper sailing boat to me.

 

[Nicholas123]

I looked at a Macwester but it may have been a 26, it's a while ago.
I came away thinking it was a bit old looking, styling as well as that example being tired.
It was built very solid even compared to my current Centaur and they are supposed to be bomb proof if the keels have been beefed up.

Since the keels are vertical so that the hull will pull out of the mould, I would think that these types of boats are what gave bilge keelers a bad name for going sideways slowly, but I could be wrong.

The Centaur won't point as high as a fin keeler but if you sail a bit off the wind they don't do too badly for leeway, certainly good for a shoal draught/bilge keeler and better than most.

Sounds like you are describing the Macwester 26.

 

[Rossynant]

I looked at a Macwester but it may have been a 26, it's a while ago.
Since the keels are vertical so that the hull will pull out of the mould, I would think that these types of boats are what gave bilge keelers a bad name for going sideways slowly, but I could be wrong.

Macwester 26 was meant as very shoal draft, with small keels (splayed outwards like in Centaur but smaller); was no good to windward. Incidentally keels at angle are better to windward (with same draft that is) as one gets vertical when heeled and acts more efficiently - problem is in light winds when good performance suffers while most needed.
With Mac 27 keels were made much deeper for this very reason (deeper than Centaur), was told this one goes quite well upwind. But it's just someone's opinion.

Both those boats are undercanvassed for size, idea being family cruiser should be easy to handle and safe in blow. From looking at them I'd guess Macwester can be given more sail, with bowsprit and lighter sail on roller; wouldn't try putting more on Westerly though. Once again - this is opinion just from looking boats over ashore.

PS. But for sail power - just checked. Both about 14 SA/D. My heavy Seadog has more and they say she's a dog...

 

[Otter]

Very accurate on the Mac. The 26 is a hell of a slow boat to sail, shallow draft and short mast - but a lovely boat if you don't mind motoring and surely the most interior volume per £! The Mac 27 & 28 have much deeper keels and taller masts and were designed to combat the sailing issues of the 26. We had a 28 and she sailed well though poorly to windward when there was a short chop, those bluff bows get stopped easily. Almost no form stability - she heeled to 20 degrees in a force 3! Mind you, having got there she never heeled any more up to a force 6. My wife loved the interior but hated its sailing because of the heeling, weather helm which made it hard for her to steer in anything above a force 4 and because it was slow to windward - the VMG was embarrassing, the through water speed was fine. But for £5k you can get a re-engined 27 that's been well looked after; loads and loads of space, nice looks, good reach and run and a solid motor sailer to windward. That's a lot of boat for £5k.

 

[bitbaltic]

Centaur is designed more for sail performance with those keels at angle. In fact Centaur looks as original concept of design was a modern finkeeler.

Pretty sure the Centaur was always conceived of as a bilge keeler. Only late in its life did Westerly try fitting a single fin to the hull moulding- a boat sold as the Pembroke but otherwise identical- and it didn't sell in great numbers, which suggests no radical performance improvement.

All the bilge keeled boats suggested in this thread are going to be slow and struggle to point in comparison to modern family cruisers (most of which are a lot bigger to start with). The OP has said that he is looking for a family sailing 'floating caravan', so a discussion of the possible performance differences between Macwesters and Centaurs isn't relevant. He should buy on condition and, if that is equal, accommodation.

 

[Rossynant]

We had a Mac 28 and she sailed well though poorly to windward when there was a short chop, those bluff bows get stopped easily [...] weather helm which made it hard to steer in anything above a force 4 and it was slow to windward - the VMG was embarrassing, the through water speed was fine.

Confirms my impression that this boat would profit from bowsprit and more foretriangle sail. Might be a way to improve; nowadays it's no problem, bigger genoa on roller for coastal use or even cutter rig, modern kind hook can have it's roller in bowsprit which is convenient.

 

[chwarae]

Have a look at the Tomahawk,nice to sail and surprisingly roomy. Cheaper than a Centaur and very forgiving.

 

[Nicholas123]

From looking at them I'd guess Macwester can be given more sail, with bowsprit

Must admit that was my first impression looking at a Mac 27 & I thought of the bowsprit idea also.Particularly as it is a cracking very traditional design it seems to me & would compliment it.But C J Roy did design it with the sailing performance in mind (it was the first sailing boat tank tested at Southampton University apparently) & I did'nt find it undercanvassed sailing back from Belgium.I suspect unlike many modern boats it was designed with all sailing conditions in mind.

 

[Nicholas123]

But for £5k you can get a re-engined 27 that's been well looked after;

I think you'd be lucky to do that for £5k judging by my experience but who knows there may be some particularly sharp buyers & hagglers out there.
Old mark ones are quite plentiful but a good mark two etc seems to have been selling for £8/£10k recently.