Fairline to Sail to New Home

[MapisM]

All well and good P, but I'm afraid that based on your train of thought, "securing a British future for Fairline" doesn't sound like the most logical choice, neither from the current shareholders nor from any other potential investor viewpoint... :ambivalence:

 

[petem]

All well and good P, but I'm afraid that based on your train of thought, "securing a British future for Fairline" doesn't sound like the most logical choice, neither from the current shareholders nor from any other potential investor viewpoint... :ambivalence:

Actually MM, I don't care what nationality the owners are, I'd just prefer it to be someone who is passionate about boats and will continue building them (or at least designing them) in the UK.

I'd be interested to know if people still regard Sealine as a British brand now that its owned a manufactured in Germany. Is there any British DNA left?

 

[henryf]

Hmmmm. In a world of 7,000,000,000 billion, why aren't 2500 or 25000 people buying these boats (both number being a minute fraction of the world's population). You cannot argue that this is an extremely and fickle global market and contraction to 125 boats is more likely than it expanding to 500 boats.

I

Princess are geared up to producing 250 odd boats a year. The trick is to then sell them for as much money as they can. In theory they could gear themselves up to producing 2,500 boats but given the size and complexity of a boat it would be a very substantial investment which would undoubtedly have an impact on margins.

Finding 250 people in the world isn't hard. The trick is to balance all the elements of the business.

There are some parts of the world where the likes of Princess haven't even scratched the surface yet.

 

[petem]

I

Princess are geared up to producing 250 odd boats a year. The trick is to then sell them for as much money as they can. In theory they could gear themselves up to producing 2,500 boats but given the size and complexity of a boat it would be a very substantial investment which would undoubtedly have an impact on margins.

Finding 250 people in the world isn't hard. The trick is to balance all the elements of the business.

There are some parts of the world where the likes of Princess haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Sorry Henry but I'm rather sceptical that things are as rosy as you claim for Princess. Firstly, I hear rumours of unsold stock scattered around various dealerships (could be bullshit, I admit) and also also if they're selling everything they build without having to tap into new markets then why are they in dispute with their staff who were threatening industrial action only 5 weeks ago?

Great boats though!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Actually MM, I don't care what nationality the owners are, I'd just prefer it to be someone who is passionate about boats and will continue building them (or at least designing them) in the UK.

I'd be interested to know if people still regard Sealine as a British brand now that its owned a manufactured in Germany. Is there any British DNA left?

Is there any British DNA in the current main stream UK builders line up. Sealine did look British some years ago but the new ones certainly a bit less.
Altough they still seem to be conceived for a Northern European market.

Henry I think Princess sold/build about 150 boats this year, and about the same the year before. More or less it is the same for Sunseeker.
How much did Fairline sell 70/50.
I am not sure they can produce 250 with current sizes on offer.
But tbh Princess is in a very strong position at the moment because it is a pence worth in the portfolio of LVMH, it is just a hobby for them.
Sunseeker OTOH is not so clear, last year there where news that they where looking at moving production of sub 70 feet models to China. Also they have little coming in new models this year minus three announced big models 90 feet plus.
The big yacht market is very different to the small one, you sell 10 make your income and small profit and then have to move to next models in 3 years after its launch again leaving you with little profit.

 

[admillington]

Sorry Henry but I'm rather sceptical that things are as rosy as you claim for Princess. Firstly, I hear rumours of unsold stock scattered around various dealerships (could be bullshit, I admit) and also also if they're selling everything they build without having to tap into new markets then why are they in dispute with their staff who were threatening industrial action only 5 weeks ago?

Great boats though!

I believe there is a far amount of stock around- if you look at Princess International Sales and Service Ltd - 2014 accounts there is stock listed at £49,233,765 - Some will of course be part exchanges they have taken in but the large proportion must be new Princess yachts. Is that such a bad thing - for me, not. I far prefer to see something physical in stock and buy it - takes away any uncertainly about providing a large deposit that is larger than the net assets of the company it is entrusted to.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Are you suggesting Range Rovers and their various spin offs aren't a very successful brand overseas?

Henry

No, but I believe that their success is to do with the quality of the product rather than the country of manufacture. If the "The made in England sticker" was still worth much then the other 'English' car manufacturers might still be around. The immediate cause of the laugh (more of a wry smile actually) was as you stated Land Rover, yes I know Range Rover is one of their products but I'm of an age and profession where I remember how successful Land Rovers were in markets long lost to others. As an aside I suspect we will see LR product manufactured outside the UK possibly within the next 5 years and probably the next 10. They of course have not been a British company for some time.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I believe there is a far amount of stock around- if you look at Princess International Sales and Service Ltd - 2014 accounts there is stock listed at £49,233,765 - Some will of course be part exchanges they have taken in but the large proportion must be new Princess yachts. Is that such a bad thing - for me, not. I far prefer to see something physical in stock and buy it - takes away any uncertainly about providing a large deposit that is larger than the net assets of the company it is entrusted to.

I know some builders which had that stock which went down in 2012 and sales of over 100 million EUROS before the year before. I do not know though how much Princess Yachts and Princess Sales and Service have to do with each other.

Returning to Fairline I also think what put the last nail in the coffin for them in 2015 was also the exit of Essex as its dealer.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Princess are selling boats and most are made to order.

This is going to be one huge problem that Fairline are going to have in the next few weeks and months until they sort themselves out. Given the adverse publicity that Better Capital suffered when they closed down City Link, there will be many potential buyers asking themselves whether it would be wise to to place an order with Fairline and commit to stage payments when there is a chance that Better pulls the plug during the build. I'm not sure I would want to take that risk myself. So given the fact that Fairline seem to be operating on a build to order basis only at present, its difficult to see how they are going to sell any boats at all until their future is decided for sure. Maybe they will be forced to build for stock again

IMHO it was a pretty questionable decision by Better to announce that they were looking for buyers for Fairline when that announcement in itself could damage that business

 

[petem]

Returning to Fairline I also think what put the last nail in the coffin for them in 2015 was also the exit of Essex as its dealer.

Isn't it a little premature to say that the last nail is in the coffin?

How much of Fairline's sales were in the UK compared to the US, Med and Asia? And don't forget that Fairline still have two established dealers selling their boats in the UK (Bates Wharf and Burton Waters).

 

[rubberduck]

This is going to be one huge problem that Fairline are going to have in the next few weeks and months until they sort themselves out. Given the adverse publicity that Better Capital suffered when they closed down City Link, there will be many potential buyers asking themselves whether it would be wise to to place an order with Fairline and commit to stage payments when there is a chance that Better pulls the plug during the build. I'm not sure I would want to take that risk myself. So given the fact that Fairline seem to be operating on a build to order basis only at present, its difficult to see how they are going to sell any boats at all until their future is decided for sure. Maybe they will be forced to build for stock again

IMHO it was a pretty questionable decision by Better to announce that they were looking for buyers for Fairline when that announcement in itself could damage that business

+1

 

[petem]

This is going to be one huge problem that Fairline are going to have in the next few weeks and months until they sort themselves out. Given the adverse publicity that Better Capital suffered when they closed down City Link, there will be many potential buyers asking themselves whether it would be wise to to place an order with Fairline and commit to stage payments when there is a chance that Better pulls the plug during the build. I'm not sure I would want to take that risk myself. So given the fact that Fairline seem to be operating on a build to order basis only at present, its difficult to see how they are going to sell any boats at all until their future is decided for sure. Maybe they will be forced to build for stock again

IMHO it was a pretty questionable decision by Better to announce that they were looking for buyers for Fairline when that announcement in itself could damage that business

Mike, what makes you think it was Better who made the announcement?

 

[Blue Sunray]

This is going to be one huge problem that Fairline are going to have in the next few weeks and months until they sort themselves out. Given the adverse publicity that Better Capital suffered when they closed down City Link, there will be many potential buyers asking themselves whether it would be wise to to place an order with Fairline and commit to stage payments when there is a chance that Better pulls the plug during the build. I'm not sure I would want to take that risk myself.

I'm absolutely positive that I would not.

 

[halcyon]

Actually MM, I don't care what nationality the owners are, I'd just prefer it to be someone who is passionate about boats and will continue building them (or at least designing them) in the UK.

I'd be interested to know if people still regard Sealine as a British brand now that its owned a manufactured in Germany. Is there any British DNA left?

Sealine lost it with the Brunswick tack over, design and manufacture, that got worse when Brunswick sold it to the investment group.

The industry lost the plot in the early / mid 1990's, since then it's slowley gone down hill.

Brian

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, what makes you think it was Better who made the announcement?

Sorry I put that badly. Of course they didn't make an announcement but at the same time it was pretty damn careless to allow this information to slip out

 

[rafiki_]

No, but I believe that their success is to do with the quality of the product rather than the country of manufacture. If the "The made in England sticker" was still worth much then the other 'English' car manufacturers might still be around. The immediate cause of the laugh (more of a wry smile actually) was as you stated Land Rover, yes I know Range Rover is one of their products but I'm of an age and profession where I remember how successful Land Rovers were in markets long lost to others. As an aside I suspect we will see LR product manufactured outside the UK possibly within the next 5 years and probably the next 10. They of course have not been a British company for some time.

LR has built overseas for decades. Defenders in many countries, Freelanders in Thailand and India. There's a JV with Chery in China and a new factory in Brazil. Most BMW 3 series we buy in the UK are built in South Africa, X5 and Z4 in the USA. Doesn't stop people buying them and thinking they are German.

 

[henryf]

Sorry Henry but I'm rather sceptical that things are as rosy as you claim for Princess. Firstly, I hear rumours of unsold stock scattered around various dealerships (could be bullshit, I admit) and also also if they're selling everything they build without having to tap into new markets then why are they in dispute with their staff who were threatening industrial action only 5 weeks ago?

Great boats though!

Unsold stock is easy enough to track, it's advertised for sale when available. Over the years I've talked openly with Princess sales and bought 2 of their stock boats. Where they have suffered in the past is through having too many of 1 model. When stock has appeared more recently it has generally been single units across the range which is much healthier.

Having the confidence in your product and the financial security to absorb stock boats is a good thing. Not everyone wants to involve themselves in the build process or wait months and months. They want to pay their money and get out on the water. I could be dealer for space ships if all I needed to do was open an office, hand out brochures and take orders. Slightly harder if I had to commit financially to stock.

I'm not sure a company entering into negotiations with workers asking for more money rather than just handing them more cash would be seen as a negative thing in the business world. The workers aren't claiming they haven't been paid, they are saying they want a bigger slice of the success story they see unfolding in front of them.

No one has ever claimed Princess aren't keen to tap into emerging markets. The world stage changes. Previously easy money dries up, politicians decide to target ostentatious activities claiming they are signs of corruption, once profitable sectors of the market dry up to be replaced by new industries and the political map is constantly being re-drawn. Who ever would have considered Croatia a leisure boating Mecca in the first half of the 1990's ?

Henry

 

[MapisM]

Who ever would have considered Croatia a leisure boating Mecca in the first half of the 1990's ?

I would, and actually did. Most of the archipelago has been practically unaffected by the war.
In fact, I have it on good authority (from people who were boating there back then, and still are) that in many respects those years were actually the best, from a pleasure boater perspective.

Not that the debatable example per se makes your reasoning wrong, but just for the records.

 

[halcyon]

No, but I believe that their success is to do with the quality of the product rather than the country of manufacture. If the "The made in England sticker" was still worth much then the other 'English' car manufacturers might still be around.

What intrigues me is why ? take the Metro, universal rubbish on here, yet it was built in a new 71,000 sq M workshop, which was the most productive in Europe, made more use of robots, had automatic inspection, each body was 23 dimension checked on the production line, advanced paint. Same with Rover in 1994, ahead in Europe, yet bad press.

If interested a bit on Longbridge plant http://www.austinmemories.com/page8/page53/page53.html

Brian

 

[Blue Sunray]

LR has built overseas for decades. Defenders in many countries, Freelanders in Thailand and India. There's a JV with Chery in China and a new factory in Brazil. Most BMW 3 series we buy in the UK are built in South Africa, X5 and Z4 in the USA. Doesn't stop people buying them and thinking they are German.

I confess I though the overseas Defender production was assembly by JVs rather than actual build - happy to stand corrected.