Fairline to loose 85 jobs

[ari]

Rolex have a budget (!) brand though, Tudor!

Mercedes make Smart cars, which enable a budget brand without harming the 'marque'

EXACTLY! They call them Tudor, not Rolex, just as Smarts aren't called Mercedes.

Had Aston Martin really only produced the Cygnet as a sop to emissions regs they could easily have called it a Tickford Cygnet. Indeed they've done so before (for different reasons), remember the Tickford Capri?

But they didn't, they tried to cash in on the Aston brand. As I say, it was about profit, not emissions regs.

Fairline could easily make smaller boats when orders of large ones dry up, enabling them to keep the staff on, and divert production to larger ones when it suits.

Surely theres some mileage in that!?

Aha, back to the point, excellent.

I don't believe Fairline could build small boats to their standards and sell them competitively. Indeed they couldn't build them to Bayliners standards and be competitive.

They simply don't have the economies of scale that Bayliner, Sea Ray and the like do.

So they'd risk diluting their image/credibility/call it what you like to build boats that they couldn't sell for a profit. What's the point?

 

[z1ppy]

but theres something strangly appealing about the Bennington boats.. wonder if they will part ex?

 

[AdeOlly]

Must say I've properly discovered the bennington brand with this thread. That's quite some machine there in your picture Adrian. I'm finding it hard to stop laughing at it. It's like a massive industrial generator sledge with a load of American Airlines Club Class seats bought off eBay nailed on, and what looks like 275hp of YummyYammy on the back. Just needs a posse of gorgeous skimpy latino girls and you could enter it in the Rio carnival

Yes, they're really something. Just take a look at their website (well, briefly anyway) - incredibly there are millions of options as to where they nail the seats and such like. They could almost be called a custom build.

It's almost worth importing one just to video the reaction of others after a successful Solent crossing. I have visions of raggies tripping over lines and going head first into the drink and small children falling over with laughter. Do you recking The Queen would allow me to berth it at the RYS?

 

[ari]

Right, so, extending the AM logic to Fairline, all they have to do is buy in a basic boat, bling it up at Oundle and then flog it for 100% extra. I reckon they could do a lot worse than start this process with the Bennington 2275.
I mean, take a look at the photo; it already clearly has the measure of a Targa in the handling stakes.

So, ship to Oundle, fit underwater lights, a hi-lo swim platform, mood lights, top quality teak and fitting throughout. Give them a new name - Fairtoon. Just the ticket. They would have to be a hit.... right?

That's fantastic!

I take it all back, Fairline should definitely do this!

 

[Marsupial]

But they didn't, they tried to cash in on the Aston brand. As I say, it was about profit, not emissions regs.

NO its for emission regs:

In contrast to the legislation for regulated pollutants, there was until recently no current EU law which limits the amount of carbon dioxide produced by cars. However, in 2009, the European Parliament passed new car CO2 legislation that sets an emissions cap of 130 g/km averaged over all new vehicles produced by each manufacturer by 2015. The 130 g/km average will be the equivalent of 58 mpg for diesel engines and 52 mpg for petrol engines.
Reaching this goal will be phased in over three years; by 2012, 65% of each manufacturers' newly registered cars must comply, 75% by 2013 and 80% by 2014 and 100% by 2015. An extended target is set to be an average of 95 g/km by 2020. Manufacturers that exceed targets from 2012 onwards will have to pay a penalty for each car registered, which amounts to €5 for the first g/km of over the limit, €15 for the second g/km, €25 for the third, and €95 for each subsequent gram. From 2019, stricter penalties will be introduced with every exceeding gram costing the manufacturer €95.

ref: http://www.nextgreencar.com/caremissions.php

in answer to other posts about boats, Oyster now produce in Turkey, Moody has gone to the former eastern blok - will Princess follow? Fairline cling on, Yes we do make some great products in the UK but they're too expensive when compared with what else is on offer at a similar quality elsewhere in the world. Niche markets bite, niches disappear and leave you with no where to go.

 

[ari]

Read the thread.

 

[henryf]

Must say I've properly discovered the bennington brand with this thread. That's quite some machine there in your picture Adrian. I'm finding it hard to stop laughing at it. It's like a massive industrial generator sledge with a load of American Airlines Club Class seats bought off eBay nailed on, and what looks like 275hp of YummyYammy on the back. Just needs a posse of gorgeous skimpy latino girls and you could enter it in the Rio carnival

No no no John.

On this occasion I have to call you to task. That Bennington has a very sophisticated tri-tube elyptical hull which helps it achieve such stunning handling. (The middle tube is bigger the outside ones).

I can really see them taking off big style in the SoF.

Could Fairline see profitability out of making much smaller boats? I'm not sure they could. The Americans can devise production techniques based on scales of economy. Also the cost of finding a customer for a 20 footer is pretty much the same as for a 50 footer. With the smaller boats it is very easy to be busy but not particularly profitable. You need to have a product into which you can bolt on a decent chunk of profit. Either that or have a production line which allows boats to be produced for pennies and the American home market means you could never compete. So British manufacturers need to find their niche.

I think some of the boats being produced are a bit too niche within their niche given some of the rather left of centre designs being created. One of the reasons I buy Princess boats is because I don't want something too "cutting edge" for fear that today's cutting edge becomes yesterday's bad memory. I don't wear flared trousers for the same reason.

We have a habit of associating job losses with failure. It could well be that the losses are as a result of streamlining. The British media has never been one to let in depth investigation and reporting get in the way of a sensationalist story.

At least the 78 line will be busy

Henry

 

[jfm]

- will Princess follow? Fairline cling on, Yes we do make some great products in the UK but they're too expensive when compared with what else is on offer at a similar quality elsewhere in the world.

I'm genunely intrigued. Do you think there is a "similar quality" and cheaper non UK boat, based on a direct comparison with Princess and Fairline, at say 70 and 50 feet? I'm intrigued to know. It cannot be any of the € builders at FX rates over the last 3 yrs. I have studied the market at length and honestly cant think of anything. Galeon is approaching this, but the prices are shooting up (as is the quality) such that they are no longer cheaper like for like. The eastern stuff like Lamberti, Monte Fino is just absolutely horrid and way way inferior to FairPrinSeek. Drettman/Elegance is bust and required a certain acquired taste too

 

[jfm]

...sophisticated tri-tube elyptical hull which helps it achieve such stunning handling.

Stunning handling? Looks to me like it's 5 seconds away from the YammyMother flipping it A over T

 

[EME]

Oyster now produce in Turkey, Moody has gone to the former eastern blok - will Princess follow?

I thought Moody were now owned by Hanse Group, a German-listed company since before Moody was acquired.

 

[rafiki_]

I am not really in the camp that it is cheaper to manuf in the far east and import here. IIRC, John's Match cost circa £45k to ship from UK to SoF. I understand that is for a 1 off, so in a business transaction, shipping a 50 footer from the far east to Eu would cost £50k ish? While labour costs in the far east are say 20% of Eu/UK, materials are similar costs, and the powertrains would need to be shipped from Eu to Asia. White collar costs in far east are rapidly catching UK costs. My engineers in China and India are on 80% of UK salaries and increasing 10% pa.

So I don't think the economics make a huge ammount of sense now, while they might have done 10 years ago. It is probably cheaper to manufacture in the US than anywhere these days, taking the total supply costs to FoB.

The UK manufacturers must focus on their real market place. Innovation, craftmanship, seaworthiness, and seek to be good value not lowest price. This has meant a shaking out of some jobs, and improving productivity. We are all doing the same these days.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I am not really in the camp that it is cheaper to manuf in the far east and import here. IIRC, John's Match cost circa £45k to ship from UK to SoF. I understand that is for a 1 off, so in a business transaction, shipping a 50 footer from the far east to Eu would cost £50k ish? While labour costs in the far east are say 20% of Eu/UK, materials are similar costs, and the powertrains would need to be shipped from Eu to Asia. White collar costs in far east are rapidly catching UK costs. My engineers in China and India are on 80% of UK salaries and increasing 10% pa.

In my industry, Chinese equipment typically costs 60-70% of what similar European equipment costs and in many markets (not the UK yet thank heaven) that gives them enough of an advantage to take substantial market share. Manufacturing costs are almost immaterial for some Chinese companies because, thanks to their huge home market, they have the financial muscle to take market share in other markets by dumping prices. The only way that European manufacturers can stay ahead is by constant technological innovation.
Yes you're right, shipping voluminous grp boat hulls half way across the world would be expensive but plenty of boat builders do it eg Fleming, Grand Banks, Nordhavn. You can bet that if it was cheaper for those companies to manufacture in the US or Europe, they'd do it

 

[rafiki_]

In my industry, Chinese equipment typically costs 60-70% of what similar European equipment costs and in many markets (not the UK yet thank heaven) that gives them enough of an advantage to take substantial market share. Manufacturing costs are almost immaterial for some Chinese companies because, thanks to their huge home market, they have the financial muscle to take market share in other markets by dumping prices. The only way that European manufacturers can stay ahead is by constant technological innovation.
Yes you're right, shipping voluminous grp boat hulls half way across the world would be expensive but plenty of boat builders do it eg Fleming, Grand Banks, Nordhavn. You can bet that if it was cheaper for those companies to manufacture in the US or Europe, they'd do it

Mike, I think 10-15 years ago, it was much cheaper to manuf in the far east, so significant operations were established. These are not transferred quickly. The gap is closing, and so I feel a bit more confident about manufacturung in the UK than some. If our boat building industry builds great boats, they will sell. Maybe not in the vols of the mid 2000's but sufficient to sustain the industry.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Drettman/Elegance is bust and required a certain acquired taste too

Fair to correct Drettmann was only a dealer selling Horizon Taiwan build yachts, with the Elegance label brand being commisioned and agreed with them, and designed by Italian Spadolini (hope I am correct). In recent years I think it was 2007 they took global agreement sales for all Horizon models World wide.
I think this yard is quite advanced technolgy wise and build a very good boat. In some areas better to the Brits, but this is also reflected in the price. Now if you like them or not that is another story. There price is not cheap, and I think some of there models sold more expensive to a new Princess.
Drettmann went bust mostly for its over stocked used boats in hand, apart the other usual reasons .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think this yard is quite advanced technolgy wise and build a very good boat. In some areas better to the Brits, but this is also reflected in the price. Now if you like them or not that is another story. There price is not cheap, and I think some of there models sold more expensive to a new Princess.
Drettmann went bust mostly for its over stocked used boats in hand, apart the other usual reasons .

Yup, I have looked over Elegance boats in Majorca and Croatia and I have always been impressed by their build quality. Some of the interiors are indeed a bit bling but thats because buyers were given a much higher degree of customisation possibilities than from other boat builders. In fact, IMHO that was one of their selling points. Yes I heard too that Drettmann went under because they had taken in too much part exchange stock at too high prices. Effectively, Drettman was just a dealer for their Taiwanese built boats, a bit like Trader was in the UK, but on a larger scale

 

[stelican]

Yes, they're really something. Just take a look at their website (well, briefly anyway) - incredibly there are millions of options as to where they nail the seats and such like. They could almost be called a custom build.

It's almost worth importing one just to video the reaction of others after a successful Solent crossing. I have visions of raggies tripping over lines and going head first into the drink and small children falling over with laughter. Do you recking The Queen would allow me to berth it at the RYS?

There is a similar boat already cruising the Hamble river (sponsored) I believe.
I want one!

 

[henryf]

As has already been said labour costs in Asia are constantly rising. I was out in Taiwan last week and once again minimum wages were on the agenda. The other problem is finding skilled labour if you are exploiting the bargain basement sector of the labour market. Common sense isn't always included in the equation.

The thing with all the boats I can think of which are built in Asia is that they aren't actually cheap. You don't wander round the boat show and think wow, that thing is half price compared to Western produced offerings. This is especially so when looking at actual prices paid as opposed to list prices.

Don't forget that not only do the boats have to get from Asia to here but most of the fixtures and fittings have to get from the West to the East so you're actually paying for the boat to be transported twice, once in bits, once assembled.

boat building requires a huge amount of design input at all stages of the process with constant evolution and problem solving. The production numbers are tiny compared to a computer or even a car where tens of thousands are produced once the design is approved and there are no changes made. Assembly is also tightly controlled by assembly rigs and templates. Boats still leave a lot to the individua.

Henry

 

[Portofino]

85 people has lost their job,s not due to manufacturing costs, but poor sales ,
Customers are not buying the product.
Fairlines are not overpriced out by high input costs. Look at the near competition
SS ,princess and sealine..We also seem to be able the assemble cars. Landrover for example and sell into a World Markets.Like Porsche the range spans a wide spectrum now.
I think the competition in terms of range , style, innovation marketing , poss image has left Fairline behind, in the eyes of the buyers ( who are now a shrinking No in the ressession hit West)
Princess have a wider range as do SS , sealine have a norrow range constrained by a landlocked site , but the base sc29 ? And sc 35 has been a phenomenal success , taking the T 34 etc sales off Fairline .The cash flow from this has keep Sealine afloat, and gained some potential loyal buyers .Some not all will move up , like SS through the range .SS have hung on at the other end ,big stuff now at 155 .
At the top where do T60 and Sq 78 owners go???
Into a SS or Prin ( well there is a modal waiting ) - they at least leave the brand = lost sale /£££ .
SS and Prin are reacting to customer demand in building bigger boats , It's not the other way .Inovation Tech side of thing , the punter can not see this , ie the "infusion process" or the CNC milling machines . I have taken the build fit/ finish to be comparable.
Price structure ' more/ less equal , with the exception of aggressive price for the base of the pyramid intro modals,
The Product is not selling = job losses ( pink elephant in the corner of the room)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The thing with all the boats I can think of which are built in Asia is that they aren't actually cheap. You don't wander round the boat show and think wow, that thing is half price compared to Western produced offerings. This is especially so when looking at actual prices paid as opposed to list prices.

Don't equate Taiwan with mainland China. Most Far Eastern boat builders moved their manufacturing base from Taiwan to China many years ago precisely because of increasing labour costs in Taiwan. I think I'm right in saying that the only major mobo builder left in Taiwan is Grand Banks but I could be wrong there. Yup, all boat builders are using the same type of components as each other so I guess there's no great cost advantage there but there is definitely a saving in labour cost otherwise there wouldn't be a point to doing it. Why would many builders serving the US market build their boats in the Far East instead of the US? As for prices, yes, if you compare prices on a per ton basis, they're cheaper. I know strictly speaking they're not comparable but a Nordhavn 52 costs about the same as the average Euro 50 footer planing boat but weighs about twice as much and yes I know some of that extra weight is ballast