Fairline Squadron 78 refit/fit - Hard Top
- Thread starter jfm
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jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Nick, I can't use zip ties as I cannot reach the zip tie point
No, I never got around to doing that BartW. I have a new problem with the HT which is that I can't reach the c/flag. Need a ladder. So I have to invent/make/buy something soon. Petem's new business could make something maybe
Nick, I can't use zip ties as I cannot reach the zip tie point
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Tee hee! Yup, I'm not a fan of oversized ensigns except on big sailing boats. Mine is 1.5 yard size and I chose it specifically to be not oversized! The staff could be any length - I had a 2m length of 50 dia carbon fibre tube
Its a British thing Bart, being understated
Tee hee! Yup, I'm not a fan of oversized ensigns except on big sailing boats. Mine is 1.5 yard size and I chose it specifically to be not oversized! The staff could be any length - I had a 2m length of 50 dia carbon fibre tube
colhel
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
How many flags do you need to swap or is it just one per staff? I'm thinking of those pens where you twist the body to and different colour refil pops out. Or a staff that hnges so you can change the flag manually.
No, I never got around to doing that BartW. I have a new problem with the HT which is that I can't reach the c/flag. Need a ladder. So I have to invent/make/buy something soon. Petem's new business could make something maybe
Nick, I can't use zip ties as I cannot reach the zip tie point
How many flags do you need to swap or is it just one per staff? I'm thinking of those pens where you twist the body to and different colour refil pops out. Or a staff that hnges so you can change the flag manually.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
I'd like 4 flags (Fr, Monaco, Corsica, Italy) that I could change automatically in your "pen" idea. I'd also like Spain and Balearics, but I can climb up to do those because I don't go there much
I'd love a neat mechanism to change flags automatically but with best will in the world it is difficult and the thing wont be "slim"
I think simple may be best -
- a pair of 25mm dia carbon staff in a socket that is screwed to top surface of HT, aft edge, and I reach up to release the staff from the socket to change flags. See orange below. Or
- raise the flag sailboat style by pulling on a loop of black string threaded thru one of a few existing eyes in the mast, but I need something at the base to make the string look neat when HT is viewed from dock (not a cleat and wound up pile of loose string). This will put the flag where the French one is in the pic below (and same port side if needed), but I had to climb a ladder to attach that French flag!
Pictures are below. The top surface of the HT is 7 foot above the deck... The aft pair of vertical legs that support the radar chair look suitable in this picture, but the lens has squeezed the perspective - these legs are actually unreachable because they are 400mm forward of the aft edge of the HT. So it is like reaching something at the back of a 7 foot high shelf - non starter. Also I don't want the flags attached to the antenna - just don't like that look
I'd like 4 flags (Fr, Monaco, Corsica, Italy) that I could change automatically in your "pen" idea. I'd also like Spain and Balearics, but I can climb up to do those because I don't go there much
I'd love a neat mechanism to change flags automatically but with best will in the world it is difficult and the thing wont be "slim"
I think simple may be best -
- a pair of 25mm dia carbon staff in a socket that is screwed to top surface of HT, aft edge, and I reach up to release the staff from the socket to change flags. See orange below. Or
- raise the flag sailboat style by pulling on a loop of black string threaded thru one of a few existing eyes in the mast, but I need something at the base to make the string look neat when HT is viewed from dock (not a cleat and wound up pile of loose string). This will put the flag where the French one is in the pic below (and same port side if needed), but I had to climb a ladder to attach that French flag!
Pictures are below. The top surface of the HT is 7 foot above the deck... The aft pair of vertical legs that support the radar chair look suitable in this picture, but the lens has squeezed the perspective - these legs are actually unreachable because they are 400mm forward of the aft edge of the HT. So it is like reaching something at the back of a 7 foot high shelf - non starter. Also I don't want the flags attached to the antenna - just don't like that look
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Vara
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
That flag staff is gorgeous, a triumph of art/workmanship.
That flag staff is gorgeous, a triumph of art/workmanship.
colhel
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Regarding the Courtesy flags, how's this?
The main pole would have a slot top and bottom, the bottom slot could be hidden with a tube that slides up to allow access. the flags could be on a continuous loop and could be accessed from the bottom slot and secured within the pole when the correct flag is raised and the tube lowered to hide the slot. The flag would now be flying outside the top slot. To get the flag to fly properly the decorative bobbin at the top of the staff would need to have a pulley on the outer diameter to draw the flag out, so this would be the only place once set that the cord would be visible. The bobbin would need to be hollow or have some way of allowing the cord to continue as a loop. ... Could the loop be powered by a small electric motor??
Regarding the Courtesy flags, how's this?
The main pole would have a slot top and bottom, the bottom slot could be hidden with a tube that slides up to allow access. the flags could be on a continuous loop and could be accessed from the bottom slot and secured within the pole when the correct flag is raised and the tube lowered to hide the slot. The flag would now be flying outside the top slot. To get the flag to fly properly the decorative bobbin at the top of the staff would need to have a pulley on the outer diameter to draw the flag out, so this would be the only place once set that the cord would be visible. The bobbin would need to be hollow or have some way of allowing the cord to continue as a loop. ... Could the loop be powered by a small electric motor??
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
I've kicked around ideas like that inside my head for a long time but haven't seen a way to get the details to work. I think you're thinking that only one flag is visible at once, so the other 3 (say) are hidden. One of them, the one just below the one flying, will be hidden by the bigger tube. The other two will be inside the hollow tube of the staff (as I understand it). I just don't see how they will scrunch inside the tube up at the top bobbin (I'm thinking of old dinghy sailing days with those spinnaker chutes, where the chute needs to have quite big girth to work). If you had super scrunchy fabric and a nice polished lead-in, you might get them to scrunch into the inside of the tube, but that sounds like a lot of trials and prototyping
I'm amazed blimmin Evo Marine haven't cracked this yet.
I've kicked around ideas like that inside my head for a long time but haven't seen a way to get the details to work. I think you're thinking that only one flag is visible at once, so the other 3 (say) are hidden. One of them, the one just below the one flying, will be hidden by the bigger tube. The other two will be inside the hollow tube of the staff (as I understand it). I just don't see how they will scrunch inside the tube up at the top bobbin (I'm thinking of old dinghy sailing days with those spinnaker chutes, where the chute needs to have quite big girth to work). If you had super scrunchy fabric and a nice polished lead-in, you might get them to scrunch into the inside of the tube, but that sounds like a lot of trials and prototyping
I'm amazed blimmin Evo Marine haven't cracked this yet.
colhel
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Yes, one flag visible and the other three hidden.
Yes, one flag visible and the other three hidden.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
I've thought about a bank of 4 these...
with say 350mm stroke and IP67. You'd mount them in an athwartships line, perhaps in a box in a box that is say 350 deep, into which the flag would be dragged down and hidden by the actuator, when not in use. You'd just flick up the one you want to use. They're 36 dia on the extending part and 48 dia on the body, which is probably ok. Sprayed in black paint of course. If I used the thickness between the top of my HT and the ceiling soffit board, I could probably lose 180 of the visible height, which would look pretty good
OK thanks. I'm still struggling to see how the fabric will reliably scrunch inside a tube less than say 50mm dia, which is too fat. I'll think about it some more - thanks for the ideas!
I've thought about a bank of 4 these...
with say 350mm stroke and IP67. You'd mount them in an athwartships line, perhaps in a box in a box that is say 350 deep, into which the flag would be dragged down and hidden by the actuator, when not in use. You'd just flick up the one you want to use. They're 36 dia on the extending part and 48 dia on the body, which is probably ok. Sprayed in black paint of course. If I used the thickness between the top of my HT and the ceiling soffit board, I could probably lose 180 of the visible height, which would look pretty good
BartW
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
I think that is a correct conclusion, (after doing the same exercise myself)
can't we live with the fact that someone has to swap the flag every now and then ?
there is alway's volunteers onboard who like to climb of the FB sofa, and change the courtesy flag,
I have a simple system, the pole has two half open circle rope hooks
and the flags have one loop on top and one on the bottum, and the rope has to be stretched to get the loops in the hooks
one can change the flags, holding himself with one hand, and change the flag with the other hand,
do I need to post a pic ?
there are other procedures onboard which can't be automated, and which we have to do much more frequently,
fe doing the ropes when mooring ......
isn't all that part of the boating, and all about what we like doing ?
I think that is a correct conclusion, (after doing the same exercise myself)
can't we live with the fact that someone has to swap the flag every now and then ?
there is alway's volunteers onboard who like to climb of the FB sofa, and change the courtesy flag,
I have a simple system, the pole has two half open circle rope hooks
and the flags have one loop on top and one on the bottum, and the rope has to be stretched to get the loops in the hooks
one can change the flags, holding himself with one hand, and change the flag with the other hand,
do I need to post a pic ?
there are other procedures onboard which can't be automated, and which we have to do much more frequently,
fe doing the ropes when mooring ......
isn't all that part of the boating, and all about what we like doing ?
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
You would need two poles anyway - one for a primary courtesy flag and one for the secondary one.
For example - here in Carloforte - one for Italy and one for Sardinia
In Sant Carles it would be one for Spain and one for Catalonia.
etc.....
But I think you already implied that you would have two.
I agree with you about the "scrunch issue"
I used to make DIY spinnakers - they always had problems recovering them.
Having said that, my courtesy flags for Spain are home made - from spinnaker fabric and might "scrunch" away better than a cloth fabric.
Although (thinking about it) - it would be a real challenge trying to reproduce a Corsica or Sardinia flag using spinnaker fabric.
All this needs some lateral thinking.
OK thanks. I'm still struggling to see how the fabric will reliably scrunch inside a tube less than say 50mm dia, which is too fat. I'll think about it some more - thanks for the ideas!
I've thought about a bank of 4 these...
with say 350mm stroke and IP67. You'd mount them in an athwartships line, perhaps in a box in a box that is say 350 deep, into which the flag would be dragged down and hidden by the actuator, when not in use. You'd just flick up the one you want to use. They're 36 dia on the extending part and 48 dia on the body, which is probably ok. Sprayed in black paint of course. If I used the thickness between the top of my HT and the ceiling soffit board, I could probably lose 180 of the visible height, which would look pretty good
You would need two poles anyway - one for a primary courtesy flag and one for the secondary one.
For example - here in Carloforte - one for Italy and one for Sardinia
In Sant Carles it would be one for Spain and one for Catalonia.
etc.....
But I think you already implied that you would have two.
I agree with you about the "scrunch issue"
I used to make DIY spinnakers - they always had problems recovering them.
Having said that, my courtesy flags for Spain are home made - from spinnaker fabric and might "scrunch" away better than a cloth fabric.
Although (thinking about it) - it would be a real challenge trying to reproduce a Corsica or Sardinia flag using spinnaker fabric.
All this needs some lateral thinking.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Scrunching is not the answer. Rotating is. Maybe the flag needs to come out of a slot like a roller blind. Or maybe pop up to come out, rotate and drag down to go in.
How to get the right one of the 4 to the top? Hmmmm.
OK thanks. I'm still struggling to see how the fabric will reliably scrunch inside a tube less than say 50mm dia, which is too fat. I'll think about it some more - thanks for the ideas!
I've thought about a bank of 4 these...
with say 350mm stroke and IP67. You'd mount them in an athwartships line, perhaps in a box in a box that is say 350 deep, into which the flag would be dragged down and hidden by the actuator, when not in use. You'd just flick up the one you want to use. They're 36 dia on the extending part and 48 dia on the body, which is probably ok. Sprayed in black paint of course. If I used the thickness between the top of my HT and the ceiling soffit board, I could probably lose 180 of the visible height, which would look pretty good
Scrunching is not the answer. Rotating is. Maybe the flag needs to come out of a slot like a roller blind. Or maybe pop up to come out, rotate and drag down to go in.
How to get the right one of the 4 to the top? Hmmmm.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Don't forget the video idea. Get 2 ultra thin LCD screens like a pair of iPad Airs, glued back to back and generally gobbed up with sealant, mounted on carbon fibre pole, then select the courtesy flag from iPhone (including waving in the wind animation, and national anthem playing softly if you want) and Bluetooth air drop it to the iPads
After that, Hurricane could write an App with OpenCPN and a GPS feed so the flag changes automatically as you cross a national boundary
Don't forget the video idea. Get 2 ultra thin LCD screens like a pair of iPad Airs, glued back to back and generally gobbed up with sealant, mounted on carbon fibre pole, then select the courtesy flag from iPhone (including waving in the wind animation, and national anthem playing softly if you want) and Bluetooth air drop it to the iPads
After that, Hurricane could write an App with OpenCPN and a GPS feed so the flag changes automatically as you cross a national boundary
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Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
You don't realise quite how true that statement is.
I'm currently scratching my head trying to get an AIS feed over my WiFi network using exactly that - OpenCPN.
The GPS feed works - but I can't get the AIS bit working - I'm sure I will get it working in the end.
Sorry about the fred drift.
You don't realise quite how true that statement is.
I'm currently scratching my head trying to get an AIS feed over my WiFi network using exactly that - OpenCPN.
The GPS feed works - but I can't get the AIS bit working - I'm sure I will get it working in the end.
Sorry about the fred drift.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Next thing you know might well be that Hurric builds an app allowing you to control M2 remotely from your office in London, without bothering to jump on a plane to Nice every Friday...
Careful there.
Next thing you know might well be that Hurric builds an app allowing you to control M2 remotely from your office in London, without bothering to jump on a plane to Nice every Friday...
Firefly625
Well-Known Member
flag pole
we are so busy at the moment i'm flat out, but as I do I pop in & out of the forum when I take 2 seconds to sip my coffee, but the last thing I needed to be doing was scribbling designs. but just thinking of what might do it is a shaft with a continuous line inside that has the flags you want attached at spaced intervals and a opening slot at the top where the flag will appear. needs to be designed so the flags will pull past the wheels at the top and bottom without snagging... scribbled this.... no fancy design drawing but a musing to think about... and I have not gone back too many posts so if I have just lakesailored then I do apologise!
edited bit;
just read Colin's post.... same thing, sorry!,
we are so busy at the moment i'm flat out, but as I do I pop in & out of the forum when I take 2 seconds to sip my coffee, but the last thing I needed to be doing was scribbling designs. but just thinking of what might do it is a shaft with a continuous line inside that has the flags you want attached at spaced intervals and a opening slot at the top where the flag will appear. needs to be designed so the flags will pull past the wheels at the top and bottom without snagging... scribbled this.... no fancy design drawing but a musing to think about... and I have not gone back too many posts so if I have just lakesailored then I do apologise!
edited bit;
just read Colin's post.... same thing, sorry!,
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benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Don't forget the video idea. Get 2 ultra thin LCD screens like a pair of iPad Airs, glued back to back and generally gobbed up with sealant, mounted on carbon fibre pole, then select the courtesy flag from iPhone (including waving in the wind animation, and national anthem playing softly if you want) and Bluetooth air drop it to the iPads
That's a very F1 solution. I don't see the point of playing the relevant national anthem softly: Loud and Proud should do it.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
IMO
One of the requirements of the flag system is access.
I don't think the flags would need changing that often - we only change ours about twice a year - mostly when they become old and shredded.
So a motorised system isn't that essential.
However, access to changing them when they need replacing is more of a concern.
That would, IMO, be the main requirement.
So some kind of manual hoisting system (using a halyard) would be the simplest.
Actually, we can't reach ours without climbing onto the radar arch - another SWMBO job!!
IMO
One of the requirements of the flag system is access.
I don't think the flags would need changing that often - we only change ours about twice a year - mostly when they become old and shredded.
So a motorised system isn't that essential.
However, access to changing them when they need replacing is more of a concern.
That would, IMO, be the main requirement.
So some kind of manual hoisting system (using a halyard) would be the simplest.
Actually, we can't reach ours without climbing onto the radar arch - another SWMBO job!!
wakeup
Well-Known Member
Re: Fuel Cell
Don't forget the video idea. Get 2 ultra thin LCD screens like a pair of iPad Airs, glued back to back and generally gobbed up with sealant, mounted on carbon fibre pole, then select the courtesy flag from iPhone (including waving in the wind animation, and national anthem playing softly if you want) and Bluetooth air drop it to the iPads
Don't you also have to have the skipper's anthem played first followed by the constructors anthem, then the anthem of the country in question?
That's a very F1 solution. I don't see the point of playing the relevant national anthem softly: Loud and Proud should do it.
