Fairline capital contribution

Portofino said:
So why are FL not selling enough boats since say 2010 Pete ? You have not said .
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It's a competitive market. You've got Sunseeker with their extremely successful marketing and brand image (e.g. Bond movies) and a parent company with very deep pockets enabling them to constantly launch new models.

And you've got Princess, again with a parent company that is forced to continue to bail them out. I note that that they've abandoned selling anything over 88 feet (you didn't mention that debacle) and the 'X' series is simply ghastly. Another white elephant.
 
The market of 24 to 50 meters is so Italian centred nowadays that building out of Italy is a problem.
Italy has/is been the undisputed leader in this segment.
Everything costs you more once you build outside of Italy.
There was a reason why Beneteau Group Monte Carlo Yachts factory is in Italy. And the big Prestige's and CNB are ended up being completed there today.
Would they have not liked to do it in France and or Poland.

The only other alternative to Italy but to a smaller extent are Holland and Turkey.
In Holland like in Italy you find a lot of stuff with the difference is that they are into metal and aluminium building and the price point is more for custom to do jobs and higher.
Turkey is a growing market, the wood craftsmen are very good although they lack the production sense that some areas in Italy have.

Add Brexit and Covid-19 in the mix and everything is a much bigger headache today and more difficult to produce for the Brits.

Fairline is paying the mistakes it did in the last ten to fifteen years. The problem before they went bankrupt they told us was always that they could not build 80 feet plus boats.
The problem is that no one really cared, and the area they have been strong 13 to 18 meters was left dwindling with little new product arriving.
A real new product every four/five years does not cut it, when Princess /Sunseeker do one a year or two.
Imagine the Azimut 55 was launched in 2000 it changed the segment, and it took them eight years to come with a midship cabin competitor with the Squadron 55.
Sunseeker was there in 03 with the new version of the Manhattan 56 and Princess arived in 05 with the 58.

The 13 to 20 meters is Fairline's segment, but I am still seeing little to nothing. Its next new boat might be a new F-Line 43, it seems the F-Line 33 is what is really selling for them.
Beside the new Mancini designed 43/45 the 50 is the old 48 (launched 13), and the 53 is the old 50 (launched 2010). The 58 is an experiment and IMO it will not be successful if it goes out the way it is presented.
Yes the beach club is a good idea, but the way it is presented is not practical, as the way it is you have an aft deck which is smaller then that of the 45.

IMO the best product in recent years was the 2014 launched Targa 48 GTO and GT now renamed as 50. That followed one of the worst IMO the 50 which beside having a small aft deck had a lot of quality (water intrusion) issues.
 
petem said:
It's a competitive market. You've got Sunseeker with their extremely successful marketing and brand image (e.g. Bond movies) and a parent company with very deep pockets enabling them to constantly launch new models.

And you've got Princess, again with a parent company that is forced to continue to bail them out. I note that that they've abandoned selling anything over 88 feet (you didn't mention that debacle) and the 'X' series is simply ghastly. Another white elephant.
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Princess seem to be selling quite a lot of the 'white elephants', 12 so far, I seem to remember seeing somewhere? :)
 
Having skin in the game as a 50 foot owner thinking about changing at some point in the not too distant future I keep an eye on Fairline. The problem for me has always been the fact they are essentially still 1990's boats particularly from the inside. When compared to the huge internal volume of a Princess who kept on developing through the 2000's Fairline and Sunseeker looked very dated.

Sunseeker finally went head to head with Princess when they launched the Manhattan 52 and surprise surprise it sold in big numbers, I think their most successful boat ever. Sunseeker fans had been waiting ages, some moved to Princess but those that waited bought a 52. Fairline are essentially selling to a small cohort of die hard Fairline fans or people who can push Fairline to do things Princess won't (in design or price). But when compared head to head the 50 foot Fairline is massively outdated in terms of internal volume.

Fairline need to completely re-design their product. I still remember the 53 at Southampton and looking at a wall where the massive aft cabin headroom should have been. Instead you had to crawl underneath to get on the bed. From that moment on they were dead in the water.

As for Princess not making any money, I'm not an accountant or financial whizz kid but my understanding is that operationally Princess make decent money then the accountants take it away to service historic debt which I'm sure is a paper exercise to avoid tax and line the pockets of the big cheeses who own everything we see touch and smell in the world.

People always compare boats to cars and of course the reality is boats are decades behind the curve. I've found one company with a foot in both automotive and marine who potentially might have cracked it, Sirena. They manufacture commercial vehicles and have done for 50 odd years. I'm wondering if they can use their skills and methods to produce a decent boat for an affordable price and make money....

Oh, and re: the larger M class boats, the one problem Princess have in my humble opinion is understaning the need for crew accommodation and quantity. I fear they still treat it as a glorified crew cabin when in reality you might be accommodating more crew than guests. Princess are superb owner operated boats in terms of practicality but try and fit a captain, engineer, deck hand or two, chef, stewardess or two on board and you have a lot of people sharing beds !!

The X range is visually challenging without doubt but there's a definite move in that direction. I think the Horizon FD range manages to blend aesthetic and volume well.

Henry
 
I think Fairline should not try to copy what Princess is doing, but find their own niche. To get the largest internal volume and ease of maneuvering for new boaters design choices have been made, for example the use of IPS propulsion. Take the Princess F45; is that a better boat than the F43? For some yes, but I am pretty sure there are people that prefer shafts and a lazerette rather than a midships master which still has a fairly large intrusion over the bed.
Fairline could make a 40-50 ft boat more aimed at cruising, perhaps a bit slower with better seakeeping at slower speeds than a planing boat. Some elements of Magellano, Swift Trawler or Greenline.
It is quite interesting that Prestige selected shafts for the 420 rather than IPS. Last thing Fairline should do imho is making the next IPS flybridge or sportscruiser that has to go head to head with Princess V/F50 or Azimut 53.
 
EricJ said:
I think Fairline should not try to copy what Princess is doing, but find their own niche. To get the largest internal volume and ease of maneuvering for new boaters design choices have been made, for example the use of IPS propulsion. Take the Princess F45; is that a better boat than the F43? For some yes, but I am pretty sure there are people that prefer shafts and a lazerette rather than a midships master which still has a fairly large intrusion over the bed.
Fairline could make a 40-50 ft boat more aimed at cruising, perhaps a bit slower with better seakeeping at slower speeds than a planing boat. Some elements of Magellano, Swift Trawler or Greenline.
It is quite interesting that Prestige selected shafts for the 420 rather than IPS. Last thing Fairline should do imho is making the next IPS flybridge or sportscruiser that has to go head to head with Princess V/F50 or Azimut 53.
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I'm not a fan of IPS and for me they would be a deal breaker. But unfortunately, we're in a minority as most new buyers, allegedly, want IPS joysticks, etc. Not to mention the increased additional space that IPS gives and also the ease / low build cost of IPS packages.
 
Pete I doubt the new boat buyer will care. IPS will be new / under warranty.

The older units seem to have issues - The Volvo Penta Victims Facebook Group - but the newer seem ok.

The IPS system is clever and works.
 
jrudge said:
The older units seem to have issues - The Volvo Penta Victims Facebook Group - but the newer seem ok.
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For now. The older units were also fantastic, when they were new. :ROFLMAO:

Besides, there's no way round some inherent defects:
If you grab a line with shafts, all you need is a knife and a mask.
Grab it with IPS, and more than likely you'll need a liftout.

Not to mention the silly hull bottom design that IPS require.
 
jrudge said:
Pete I doubt the new boat buyer will care. IPS will be new / under warranty.

The older units seem to have issues - The Volvo Penta Victims Facebook Group - but the newer seem ok.

The IPS system is clever and works.
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And that's why it would be a poor commercial move for Fairline to have a "shafts only" policy (as suggested above).
 
petem said:
And that's why it would be a poor commercial move for Fairline to have a "shafts only" policy (as suggested above).
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It is more about Fairline making something different than Princess/Sunseeker etc. If Fairline would go the coastal cruiser route that means they most likely would use shafts.
 
It is true that Fairline need to better establish their position in the market. This is best done building on their inherent and historical values of quality and seaworthiness. There are still styling cues that are easy to spot, with both Targa's and Squadron's. Given their volumes compared to Prin/SS, it may make sense for them to give new owners freedom to customise. Clearly this works better on larger craft. IPS appear to be normal now in 45' up to 70' boats. This is for showroom appeal for cabin space, and manoeuvrability for mooring. In some cases, engines are being fitted with jack shafts to shift the engines further forwards due to trim issues, somewhat negating the packaging benefits. You also lose a lot of storage space with IPS. Not an issue for those new to boating, but for us more experienced lags, a decent lazerette is very important. So shafts and/or Vee drives for me please.
 
rafiki_ said:
It is true that Fairline need to better establish their position in the market. This is best done building on their inherent and historical values of quality and seaworthiness. There are still styling cues that are easy to spot, with both Targa's and Squadron's. Given their volumes compared to Prin/SS, it may make sense for them to give new owners freedom to customise. Clearly this works better on larger craft. IPS appear to be normal now in 45' up to 70' boats. This is for showroom appeal for cabin space, and manoeuvrability for mooring. In some cases, engines are being fitted with jack shafts to shift the engines further forwards due to trim issues, somewhat negating the packaging benefits. You also lose a lot of storage space with IPS. Not an issue for those new to boating, but for us more experienced lags, a decent lazerette is very important. So shafts and/or Vee drives for me please.
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Your comment about storage space is very true-we have a late Princess V45 on sterndrives (wish it were shafts though, although I must admit the VP Aquamatic joystick we have are really not bad) and we have ample, infact loads, of space forward of the engines to store all sorts of kit on top of all the usual med spec bits fitted like generator, aircon, watermaker etc etc which tend to eat up space. The thing that has most shocked/surprised me when looking at newer boats of a similar size (V50 and Fairline Targa 45 in particular) at the various shows is how little, infant almost non existent, the storage space is-a fraction of what we have. Whilst we would love a full beam mid cabin and all that extra comfort, I would not trade that for the lack of storage....having room for all the crap (towable, paddleboard, bikes/scooters, tools, spares etc etc) is essential for us atleast.
 
EricJ said:
I think Fairline should not try to copy what Princess is doing, but find their own niche. To get the largest internal volume and ease of maneuvering for new boaters design choices have been made, for example the use of IPS propulsion. Take the Princess F45; is that a better boat than the F43? For some yes, but I am pretty sure there are people that prefer shafts and a lazerette rather than a midships master which still has a fairly large intrusion over the bed.
Fairline could make a 40-50 ft boat more aimed at cruising, perhaps a bit slower with better seakeeping at slower speeds than a planing boat. Some elements of Magellano, Swift Trawler or Greenline.
It is quite interesting that Prestige selected shafts for the 420 rather than IPS. Last thing Fairline should do imho is making the next IPS flybridge or sportscruiser that has to go head to head with Princess V/F50 or Azimut 53.
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I'd take the 43 over the newer 45 any day - there is something about the aesthetics that I just don't like!
 
New 45 is a bubble boat, they tried to put much into it to be honest. That is why many me included me do not like it much. Nice super structure lines, hull lines a bit too bubbly.
You can call it a small X-line even though it is not ugly as the X-95, which has to be the ugliest boat ever made. That thing is hideous and having seen one in flash it is even more ugly.

Fairline is still looking at what it wants to be and become since it was bought over by the Russians. What was it 2015?
May be Fairline will end up building only F-Lines in the not so distant future, with an F-Line 43 currently being rumoured in the works.
Targa 45 is selling okay (not as they would like), best of the cabin cruiser line up followed by the 48 (50). I think they are over 20 hulls with the 45, and 50 plus with T48/50 if you count them both.
The big 65/68 are still very slow sellers, and they still in like under 20 hulls with the Targa 65 in three years. Beautiful design may be Porto was spot on on its performance limiting sales when a Prinny / Azimut S of similar size does top speed into the mid thirties.
I think ultimately Fairline will get rid of the bigger boats, and we might have a bigger F-Line around the Fifty feet mark.
*tip They would be clever if they would do it with outboards straight from the box as for example is the Azimut Verve, if they want a chunk of that ever growing CC outboard US market which is selling like hot cakes.
Centre Consoles with quality cabins offers beside Azimut Verve, Intrepid, Scout and new Wally are very rare.
Targa line will should stay, with the current design choices and focus of the brand I would not be surprised if they stop the Squadron series.

As for entering the CC market, with the American market you have to deliver in performance and solid construction in substance, and why Fairline has a good quality overall there seakeeping and balance is nowhere near t at the top of the high rated CC. Never has been.
A good American 11/12 meter CC will go 50/60 knots head on in five footers without pounding. I am sure none of all Fairline (Olesinski included) designs do that.
 
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PowerYachtBlog said:
New 45 is a bubble boat, they tried to put much into it to be honest. That is why many me included me do not like it much. Nice super structure lines, hull lines a bit too bubbly.
You can call it a small X-line even though it is not ugly as the X-95, which has to be the ugliest boat ever made. That thing is hideous and having seen one in flash it is even more ugly.

Fairline is still looking at what it wants to be and become since it was bought over by the Russians. What was it 2015?
May be Fairline will end up building only F-Lines in the not so distant future, with an F-Line 43 currently being rumoured in the works.
Targa 45 is selling okay (not as they would like), best of the cabin cruiser line up followed by the 48 (50). I think they are over 20 hulls with the 45, and 50 plus with T48/50 if you count them both.
The big 65/68 are still very slow sellers, and they still in like under 20 hulls with the Targa 65 in three years. Beautiful design may be Porto was spot on on its performance limiting sales when a Prinny / Azimut S of similar size does top speed into the mid thirties.
I think ultimately Fairline will get rid of the bigger boats, and we might have a bigger F-Line around the Fifty feet mark.
*tip They would be clever if they would do it with outboards straight from the box as for example is the Azimut Verve, if they want a chunk of that ever growing CC outboard US market which is selling like hot cakes.
Centre Consoles with quality cabins offers beside Azimut Verve, Intrepid, Scout and new Wally are very rare.
Targa line will should stay, with the current design choices and focus of the brand I would not be surprised if they stop the Squadron series.

As for entering the CC market, with the American market you have to deliver in performance and solid construction in substance, and why Fairline has a good quality overall there seakeeping and balance is nowhere near t at the top of the high rated CC. Never has been.
A good American 11/12 meter CC will go 50/60 knots head on in five footers without pounding. I am sure none of all Fairline (Olesinski included) designs do that.
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De Ja Vous.
 
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